#100 Simplifying Horse Brain Science with Dr. Steve Peters

00:00:00: In this episode, we're talking with Dr.

00:00:02: Steve Peters a neuroscientist educator and international clinician who teaches horse brain science clinics around the world.

00:00:12: Learning is two steps.

00:00:14: One is sympathetic arousal to that state where they are challenged.

00:00:19: This is where information is inputted.

00:00:21: It's just their attention.

00:00:22: so good They're capturing it because there challenge.

00:00:27: Step Two We have consolidate the information and only the horse's brain can do that.

00:00:34: Welcome to The Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse!

00:00:38: My name is Danielle Kroll, I'm your host.

00:00:40: Dr.

00:00:41: Steve Peters is a board-certified clinical neuropsychologist and internationally recognized equine neuroscientist.

00:00:49: with more than three decades of experience in brain research and clinical practice.

00:00:53: he brings together human and equine neuroscience.

00:01:00: For more than a decade, Dr.

00:01:01: Peters has presented neuroscience concepts to equestrian audiences across the United States and internationally And in recent years he founded horse brain science clinics combining classroom instruction live horse demonstrations, and equine brain dissections to provide clear practical insight into behavior learning stress.

00:01:23: And welfare.

00:01:24: his vision is that understanding the horses' brain as the most direct path to better communication reduce stress and deeper connection between horse and rider.

00:01:34: it's science serving the art of horsemanship.

00:01:37: so let's dive in Steve, welcome to the WeHorse podcast.

00:01:41: we have a lot of interest around The idea Of how the horse thinks and the behavior.

00:01:48: so I'm really excited for this interview.

00:01:50: So Welcome!

00:01:51: Oh i'm glad To be here.

00:01:52: thank you very much.

00:01:53: There is based on your bio.

00:01:55: it seems like You've spent A LOT OF time decades even working in Human Neuropsychology And i'd love to know How you began to bring This into the Horse World.

00:02:06: Well As you just mentioned, I'm a clinical neuroscientist and my day-to-day job for decades was assessing brain functioning.

00:02:18: But i always had horses And it's not a major leap to consider horses from an neurological standpoint if that is all your doing with humans.

00:02:32: All the time So, I kept up to date with all the peer-reviewed scientific literature on horses and all the mammalian research.

00:02:43: And that began to dissect out horse brains just to get a comparison with human brains which I had dissected before.

00:02:51: What I discovered was that a lot of veterinarians would contact me and say we don't get any neurology or very little in our training.

00:03:02: Would you come give a presentation?

00:03:05: Then I would find that there were lay people in the audience who said, this is all new to me.

00:03:12: Can you come speak to my horse

00:03:14: group?".

00:03:15: So without knowing that this was going to turn into a rocket...I found myself at conferences and talking.

00:03:31: Another piece of this was that I knew in science, you can't really say much unless you have large numbers.

00:03:41: So having seven horses and my herd really doesn't help me generalize out to the horse world.

00:03:48: they're just Horses In My Area right.

00:03:51: so i found his cowboy a fifth generation Cowboy Martin Black And he had thousands and thousands observations and he was very much an observant scientist although you wouldn't call himself that.

00:04:10: but this is what we called empirical evidence.

00:04:12: it's still part of the scientific process.

00:04:15: so he matched his observations with my science.

00:04:20: And then we wrote a book evidence-based horsemanship in evidence based as important piece because So much is said out there and so much on the internet floating around without any scientific evidence to support it.

00:04:36: Throughout my career I've been very strict in that everything i say not my opinion its evidence based, where can go to support those things?

00:04:48: I felt science should be applicable for entire horse world because if they better understood their horses and speak a language their horses understood through the nervous system, it would benefit horse owners and horses.

00:05:05: Absolutely yeah!

00:05:07: The thing I find really interesting is your ability to balance technical speak for veterinarians?

00:05:14: And then also like you said more layperson-speak for the average horse owner too understand.

00:05:20: so that's Well,

00:05:26: thank you very much.

00:05:27: Yeah I don't know that you could take my most recent or last book Horsebrained Science which is almost a textbook as an example of how simple i can make things because it's designed really has reference books...I want to be well-worn reference book where people go get evidence based information.

00:05:49: so maybe even good text book for equine science class.

00:05:54: So this drove me because I'm constantly looking for ways to translate scientific information, useful information to the public.

00:06:05: Because i believe science belongs to all of us.

00:06:09: Yeah

00:06:09: so I wrote another book which is due out in October Horse Brain Science Simplified.

00:06:16: but I want to make a point that only Describe it and present.

00:06:22: It is simplified the sciences in no way Watered down.

00:06:28: And it's interesting because when I first started this, I went to some veterinary programs at universities or veterinary hospitals And i told them i said i'm getting more and more requests To present to the public.

00:06:42: They said are you kidding me?

00:06:44: neurotransmitters?

00:06:45: And uh neuroendocrine system You know, you're going to end up with one or two geeks in your audience.

00:06:53: and that's it.

00:06:54: Well every day I had to speak to the general public in my job because i would make a diagnosis on complex medical diagnoses and have to explain those listening for the first time, but usually frightened with what they were hearing.

00:07:20: So I knew that i could translate information in an understandable way For the public because I did it every day.

00:07:28: so It wasn't a big stretch to then use that to talk to them The public.

00:07:34: one of things I do is you know science Is so wrapped and jargon?

00:07:41: And scientific language That it keeps people isolated from the science.

00:07:48: So when I give presentations, horse brain science clinics what i do is...I have lots of slides but they're not the boring ten paragraph slides that I read to people.

00:08:00: ...they know how to read their images.

00:08:02: simply images and I think images can reach anyone.

00:08:06: you know if you see how a dendrite fires and creates more dendrites in And I could say, well here is the bed nucleus of the striaterminalis and glass over all the audience.

00:08:23: Then that really does us no good.

00:08:26: but if i said do you see these connections?

00:08:28: They go down to an area in the brain related to fear.

00:08:32: actually we don't want send our messages down that route because look what happens overtime then can give some examples.

00:08:39: so um What they're seeing real observations, and they may know the how on how they got their horse to do something.

00:08:49: But what I hope I'm able to do for them is provide the why?

00:08:53: Why does this happen?

00:08:55: You mentioned stress and fear in there And a thing that's really interesting within The Horse World Is the idea of humanizing horses like projecting our feelings Our emotions onto the horses.

00:09:12: Can you talk a little bit about that where we make it into trouble with the idea of humanizing horses from that neurological perspective?

00:09:23: Absolutely.

00:09:24: Horses are not human beings, horses do not have a human brain.

00:09:30: humans have very large frontal lobe.

00:09:34: That allows us to perform abstract thinking.

00:09:38: contingency plans predict future.

00:09:41: I don't think your horse is thinking, wow there's a flake of hay left.

00:09:46: If I kick it under this bush...I'm going to come back on Tuesday when no other horses are around and pick that up

00:09:53: again.".

00:09:55: One of the probably most detrimental humanizing terms for horses is this idea of respect and disrespect.

00:10:10: Disrespect.

00:10:15: So there is no way that the horse can understand what that means.

00:10:19: Horses do, what horses do if we've inadvertently allowed our horse to come into our space?

00:10:27: Maybe we've trained them actually to do that.

00:10:31: maybe we're sending some signal that tells us a horse they could something but it's basically reacting and trying to interpret world in their terms.

00:10:42: why would this be detrimental?

00:10:45: A term like disrespect then justifies punishment.

00:10:49: I'm going to discipline this horse, and there is no research anywhere to support the use of punishment as a form of learning.

00:11:01: in fact that diminishes your returns on what you're trying to teach.

00:11:06: so calling a horse lazy stubborn argumentative Those are our human terms, but I would ask you how?

00:11:19: Would that help you to better interact with your horse?

00:11:23: however if we say Just change.

00:11:26: Our lens a little bit and we were to say what is my horse struggling with?

00:11:30: why is my Horse feeling it has to be this way?

00:11:35: Then our horses actually communicating something to us And We can address That.

00:11:40: If our idea and often This Is What Happens is that if people struggle to understand the nervous system, The first thing in their toolboxes more pressure.

00:11:52: And when we're working with the brain That's actually the worst tool To use.

00:11:57: because what our horse?

00:11:58: Is so sympathetically aroused and starting to go to defensive physiology Starting to protect themselves.

00:12:08: We don't want them to predict that they have to protect.

00:12:11: We actually want to answer the question every horse asks, am I safe?

00:12:17: And if we can answer that question and allow them to reset they can stay open.

00:12:23: They can be an active participant but when you put on more pressure or decide where are going to punish for something typically some things don't understand.

00:12:34: it often leads confusion will lead to more sympathetic arousal.

00:12:41: They're heading not in the direction we want if were going to have a good learning environment.

00:12:47: I'm so glad that you brought up The disrespect concept Because like, it is something that's prevalent within the horse industry That people are very quick To say this horses disrespectful when In reality It just kind of human taking it personally When doesn't need to be.

00:13:08: So i am so glad You brought And I wanted to also, yeah.

00:13:13: No go

00:13:13: ahead and add that sometimes we tend to take things personally based on ego.

00:13:20: so even though We may on a conscious level know then our horse isn't trying to purposefully play a trick On us Or get one over on Us or Go tell all the other horses.

00:13:32: did you see how i made The chump of this guy?

00:13:35: You Know This.

00:13:36: there's no way That's gonna happen but we act as if it will Or as if it did, even if we consciously know better.

00:13:43: So I think our awareness of how are human perceptions can color this in ways that actually are detrimental to our learning environment benefits the horse and benefits the human is well If We Can Stop For A Moment And Become A Little More Self-Aware.

00:14:04: When we look at like our own behavior, so some of our human behavior are human patterns.

00:14:11: that to us.

00:14:12: We think is normal and maybe even clear to the horse but knowing their brain?

00:14:20: The way you do it may not actually be cleared or the horse It May Not Be a Language That They Truly Understand.

00:14:28: What are some of the ways that our own patterns can interfere with a way that a horse learns?

00:14:35: I would recommend your listeners go check out the story of Clever Hans.

00:14:42: Clever Hanz was actually not doing algebraic problems, but reading every micromovement and breath even the posture and realize that, That's the way the nervous system is built for the horse.

00:15:02: They're highly sensitive in almost every sense.

00:15:08: so when we interact with a horse We are bringing in A whole environment.

00:15:15: Our Nervous System To The Horse Is An Entire Environment.

00:15:20: The Way We Move The Way You Breathe The Way you posture All of this has been taken into being processed.

00:15:27: If we're unaware of that, and if our movements are not congruent with the way for the horse on a sensory level and right away they'll start to move towards distrust, toward becoming more self-protective.

00:16:09: And that will be confusing to them!

00:16:13: All confusion we'll do is actually get in our way.

00:16:19: when we do that... We are consistent and become aware of our presence with the horse.

00:16:28: What happens is we become predictable if we become Predictable like clever haunts.

00:16:32: We've become readable and If were readable or safe I know what to predict?

00:16:37: I know, what i'm gonna get I Know this Is Safe.

00:16:39: we've done This before And my brain can predict that probably things are going To be just as good As they Were the last time and I Can Count on it.

00:16:49: hmm I also think too Like The idea That I remember Being you know, a young kid at aboard or I'd like lesson burn.

00:17:00: And so these school horses they knew when the kid was coming to get them for their lessons and So, you know These horses would always avoid the young kids with the halters.

00:17:12: You don't come in together then?

00:17:15: Well, if you can go up to the horse without the halter and you can scratch it because you're not going to catch It.

00:17:28: You just going up to say hello And it allows you to go up too but then it knows you have the Halter so Then you try to hide it behind your back The horse can still tell that you have something Because YOU know you have a halter!

00:17:40: You KNOW... ...you have the intention of catching this horse.

00:17:44: So even though the horse doesn't see the halters necessarily they pick-up on the sense That.. ..you almost like a predatory sense about you.

00:17:53: You know, like your kind of sneaking up on this horse?

00:17:56: Like...you're gonna catch it!

00:17:59: It's those sorts things that the horse can sense.

00:18:02: Exactly if you were simply to just change that picture around and say how could I scare my horse?

00:18:08: How can i come across as a predator?

00:18:11: Well..I'll creep yeah And then at last moment capture All those things actually are in line with predation.

00:18:27: And if our horse is asking, am I safe?

00:18:30: We're almost going to the opposite extreme to prove that you may not be...I'm gonna turn on an evolutionary pattern this already built into You That protects you and This where horses get in trouble.

00:18:45: Is there some pathways In The brain that Are designed To work With really out any thinking because they have to happen that quickly?

00:18:56: So instead of for example, there's an area the brain.

00:18:59: I don't want a good too technical called call the lateral geniculate and basically it takes in visual information And normally Visual information just goes into your eye, to the back of your head.

00:19:13: To the occipital lobe gets processed.

00:19:16: then it goes through an association area that may tell the motor system okay move If all thats going on That horse is gonna be dead if a lion's coming out in the woods.

00:19:27: So what happens?

00:19:29: The information get shunted It goes to the eye and can go immediately to the amygdala.

00:19:37: So amygdala is an area of the brain about even with your ears, right?

00:19:41: About here.

00:19:42: Same with a horse and this structure's associated with fear.

00:19:47: so no thinking Is going on.

00:19:50: it's in automatic built-in Reflex And especially highly attuned in prey animals.

00:19:57: so we have to get our horses To trust us enough that The information just travels the normal path.

00:20:05: what I call the high road The low road actually is going to get us a response.

00:20:10: But if we yell at our horse or you get upset with your horse, the horse had no thinking process.

00:20:16: it has no way of overcoming that behavior.

00:20:19: That behavior would be built into automatic patterns and have been placed there through hundreds and thousands and millions years.

00:20:31: I just find this so fascinating.

00:20:34: It's also making me very aware of the way that I interact with my horse and my horses, because even the difference between my mare and gelding is so big in their own unique little personalities.

00:20:50: And how they respond to things.

00:20:52: there's a very big difference um,

00:20:57: or

00:20:57: what I feel is confidence.

00:20:59: And so it's really interesting What you're saying that i'm going to be able To apply to my communication with them

00:21:07: and i'm glad You brought That up because I think sometimes we get Really focused on?

00:21:12: You know whether It's a mayor Or Whether its a gilding.

00:21:15: But bigger differences uh exist In just individual horses.

00:21:22: There are plenty of Arab Horses that Are pretty docile quiet, and there are plenty of draft horses that can have a lot of energetic expression.

00:21:33: So just even based on breed you know.

00:21:36: generally yeah the big Draft horse is likely to be more docile but The best way I think to look at it Is every Horse?

00:21:47: It's gonna Have A different Nervous System And Has To Because Its Previous Experiences Have Helped to Create That Brain and create that prediction.

00:21:59: Neurons that fire together, wire together.

00:22:02: so all of your experiences are different than mine.

00:22:05: So if you say the word horse You have totally different images in your brain then I am.

00:22:11: We think we're talking about the exact same thing.

00:22:15: But let's say you were bucked off And had a trauma or traumatic brain injury?

00:22:25: and nothing's wrong with you.

00:22:28: But just our idea of what a horse is plays into this as well, but every horse... Every horse that you deal with is different And the horse comes to you.

00:22:42: That day Is built on everything that happened previous To them.

00:22:48: This expression The horse lives in now.

00:22:52: Let me tell how inaccurate that is.

00:22:56: If you go and put your saddle on your horse, it rolls underneath the horse then your horse goes to bucking And finally get your saddle back.

00:23:05: I am very gentle.

00:23:09: The horse has a pretty good experience.

00:23:10: Then i let them reset their nervous system Breathe out process this whole thing The next day.

00:23:21: which horse if they live in now?

00:23:23: And it's going to be a complete blank slate.

00:23:25: Do you want to saddle?

00:23:28: Right,

00:23:28: yeah.

00:23:29: So the horse that comes to you and its so interesting is that The same horse can bring a different nervous system in a different state to you tomorrow.

00:23:39: They could be sore they could be windy You could be angry There.

00:23:44: there are many variables there That To Be Really A Really Good Horseman I think you have to be able to read all these variables.

00:23:52: You don't need big scientific labels on them, but understanding that this is always evolving and if we're demanding perfect rigidity actually what'll happen is oftentimes our horses will get irritated the learning will become very rigid.

00:24:09: your horse can almost become robotic and sometimes shut down or tune out so that they stop communicating with.

00:24:17: Well, your learning is going to be impaired.

00:24:22: and if they tune out enough information And then they wake up Then almost anything it has the potential to cause them to explode become sympathetic.

00:24:32: Wow So I think exposing them to the world giving them some agency so that They have some choice.

00:24:40: now don't go say Dr.. Peter said just let their reins Go and let him just ride off.

00:24:45: but having some agency can be as simple as getting your horse to think they're training you, for example.

00:24:51: You know just if you put your leg on and take it off with a response in your horses brain that starts to become well when the leg comes I can get that leg of.

00:25:02: all i have to do is this And then pattern will play out.

00:25:06: so almost feels as if their behavior matters.

00:25:10: Learned helplessness.

00:25:12: The definition of learned helplessness actually has having aversive stimuli And nothing you do, there's no behavior that you can do.

00:25:20: It is inescapable and so eventually just shut down to give up.

00:25:25: So your behavior has no purpose.

00:25:27: Your behavior Has No Effect!

00:25:30: So You Give Up!

00:25:32: Unfortunately There Are Horses That Have Gotten To That Extent.

00:25:37: We Always Want To Keep Our Horsies Alive.

00:25:41: Realizing What They Do Has A Difference.

00:25:46: In fact, I don't know if you've read about the five domains.

00:25:50: This is a new way of looking at horses.

00:25:53: there used to be three Fs forage friends freedom.

00:25:59: The five domains was created by this scientist David Miller.

00:26:04: Another scientists or friend of mine actually Andrew McLean helped design this structure that Truly benefits the horse.

00:26:14: We're not looking for survival So much anymore, but how can we optimize?

00:26:20: The environment to create the best brain that healthiest horse.

00:26:25: and so there are elements nutrition Health that you'd imagine to be in their but some of those our interactions Interactions between the horse and a human so that those are positive But interactions with other horses because They're herd animals.

00:26:43: And then right in the middle, mental health of the horse is getting a lot more emphasis which is great and a lot of that involves agency.

00:26:54: but the horse feels they have choices in their life.

00:26:58: we can direct those choices.

00:27:00: But this opposite to the spectrum I could make a horse do anything.

00:27:06: you had no choice.

00:27:09: make you do what I want.

00:27:10: And by God, i'll get what I Want.

00:27:13: if we're dealing with a living creature and We wanna optimize their learning and we want to Make them an active participant in Their Learning because when they are When their neurochemistry is right it's incredible They can become super learners and their neuro chemistry Is the same as ours?

00:27:31: If I want You To be excited about learning...you know..I want to Be passionate enough so that your arousal level, which would be norepinephrine.

00:27:42: It gets to a certain point and that will create another neurochemical called acetylcholine.

00:27:47: Now you can really focus your attention And that sets you up for a big dopamine hit.

00:27:53: So if I done all that as a teacher?

00:27:55: Then I teach you something and you go yes!

00:27:58: I got it.

00:27:59: That's your dopamine head and your horse is no different.

00:28:04: If i put on a lot of pressure I'll get so much norepinephrine that they can't even find the dopamine.

00:28:10: In fact, they won't even look for it.

00:28:12: in their mind is how do i Get the heck out of here?

00:28:15: and then if we put on Even more pressure to think We're gonna get there attention Their attention goes elsewhere.

00:28:21: It's Moving toward fight or flight.

00:28:24: hmm So have a question about That.

00:28:26: with all Of that in Mind are There ways For us To be able to Acknowledge when we can continue with training.

00:28:35: So maybe we say, okay I see the horse is starting to get this.

00:28:38: you know it's starting to grasp what it is that i'm asking.

00:28:42: let me continue.

00:28:43: so then it does have that click and it has a dopamine moment of like.

00:28:47: yes!

00:28:47: I got it.

00:28:49: or... When do now?

00:28:50: I think im going too far here.. I think Im overloading my horse a little bit.

00:28:55: Is there sort-of sweet spot for us to know.... Or I guess the signs and when to pause?

00:29:05: Absolutely.

00:29:05: And that is the art.

00:29:06: because we had spoken earlier about every nervous system being different, sometimes you actually have to go too far to know you went too far with a particular horse.

00:29:18: so just staying in the comfort zone entirely... You really don't know where that challenging point.

00:29:31: But let's take a look at this.

00:29:33: I do something two times, three time with my horse and four times but about the fourth time even though they're getting release from pressure or reward each effort gets lower reward less dopamine.

00:29:52: so first time wow i did it got this dopamine hit.

00:29:55: second time okay im expecting this much dopamine.

00:30:00: third, fourth fifth time that we've now were drilling.

00:30:04: So you'll get to a point where there's almost no dopamine and You know because your horse will start to get irritated.

00:30:10: look We done this fifteen times in on.

00:30:13: they started thrashing their tail etc.

00:30:16: Sometimes if you turned left three times in a row just turn right what?

00:30:21: Well the brain Gets us surprise.

00:30:24: it called reward prediction error In literature meaning If we can keep it exciting, if we could keep the learning novel then the dopamine hits our larger and your horse starts to seek those out.

00:30:38: And if we challenge them that may be arousing.

00:30:42: but what we want to do is when let's say you've done something three times We said this is new.

00:30:47: I know they have it.

00:30:48: Let me try one more time to make sure They got it.

00:30:52: That maybe the point at which if he kept going on He would either be drilling or too sympathetically arousing.

00:30:59: So this is where we stop and we're not providing any outside stimuli.

00:31:04: We are waiting to watch our horse recover in process, or waiting for their head come down, or watching the eyes blink...we look at that licking chew.

00:31:15: A lot of people have made a lot about it.

00:31:18: Really what's it?

00:31:21: There's a nerve called Glossopharyngeal Nerve ten dollar word for today.

00:31:29: Next time you see licking and chewing, say well that's activation of that glasopharyngeal nerve!

00:31:35: It runs to the salivary glands and it is all parasympathetic.

00:31:40: so if your horse is sympathetically aroused they are going to clamp their lips shut in or mouth will go dry.

00:31:45: So when we start gradually fall back into a more parasyempathetic state.

00:31:51: then it reactivates those parasympathetic fibers.

00:31:54: It's not the only sign, but that's also a good one to look for.

00:31:58: in fact there are some people who get into okay.

00:32:01: now I'm gonna look for her.

00:32:03: how many licks and chews do i get after I taught this new information?

00:32:08: Learning is two steps.

00:32:10: One is sympathetic arousal To that state where they're challenged.

00:32:14: This is Where Information Is Inputed!

00:32:16: This is where their attention so Good.

00:32:19: They're Capturing it because they're challenged.

00:32:22: Now what we have to do, that's only step one.

00:32:25: Step two—we have to consolidate the information and Only The Horse's Brain Can Do That!

00:32:31: What happens is an area called the hippocampus that's related to memory does a replay And so in their literature it's called Hippocampal Replay.

00:32:40: It replays about twenty times really fast faster than you can.

00:32:46: So if I'm gonna drill this six seven eight times you can't do it as well, is the hippocampus?

00:32:52: because one some of those times are going to be sloppier.

00:32:56: Two Some that's gonna create fatigue after a while.

00:33:01: But if you just let the brain replay then It really gets consolidated and I'm sure everybody has experienced this where they've done something.

00:33:11: That's a little frustrating.

00:33:13: If they kept doing it Then they'd reach diminishing returns.

00:33:17: Oh the hell with us.

00:33:19: But then you go to sleep at night.

00:33:21: And the next morning, he said well I'm gonna try it again and You go back?

00:33:27: When you're trying your even better.

00:33:29: that's because your brain isn't sleeping at night.

00:33:33: Your sleeping in your brain is Sleeping but its active and it's replaying this information.

00:33:40: much In the same way.

00:33:41: when we put patients in a functional MRI which Is an MRI imaging Machine where we can look at your brain in real time.

00:33:50: So, you know if you're reading a book I Can see which areas of your brain?

00:33:54: You would be using to read that book.

00:33:56: and What happens is after we've taught somebody something We had them do a task If we don't interfere from the outside their brain Same areas that they used even though now They're not Using there arm they're not using their legs but their brain replays it and lights up those exact same areas.

00:34:15: so you're actually allowing the horse's brain to replay that information and lock it in.

00:34:22: If you move to the next thing, without allowing this consolidation process then they get bits and pieces... And their not always sure how all fit together either.

00:34:33: so solidifying your learning.

00:34:37: if its especially challenging something.. You figure the horses' brains likely said something but don't say Wow, that was challenging.

00:34:47: I didn't know we'd make it through there but we did and they process it though then may be a good time to put the horse up for the day and go get them tomorrow And let the brain do what he can better than you can.

00:35:03: Yeah What about yawning?

00:35:05: So you mentioned licking and chewing like after some sort of an exercise And so they get more saliva in their mouths and then begin the licking and chewing process.

00:35:15: But what about yawning post some sort of an exercise or interaction?

00:35:21: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because there is a big difference.

00:35:25: And yawning.

00:35:27: actually research hasn't tied that down to a specific event but... What they do know that's indicating.

00:35:42: There is some evidence tapping into the opioid system.

00:35:46: so it's a stress reducer.

00:35:49: and if you look at a horse, not typical they say this is boring on once or its nice sunny day on once.

00:36:02: So typically change in state and they'll yawn once, twice three four five times.

00:36:08: Pretty soon their eyes will almost look glassy.

00:36:11: They can yawn so much that the lower lip will just droop and almost hang on the ground.

00:36:16: They'll look like they're drugged with opiates.

00:36:18: That may be because they are able to tie into it.

00:36:22: for you to read yawning Don't use yawning alone.

00:36:26: Look at the context in which the yawning occurs Because horses will yawn when they're collicking Horses will yawn when they're in pain horses.

00:36:35: Will yawn?

00:36:36: When they've got what's called allostatic response They know that their nervous system needs to do something to meet the demand asked of it.

00:36:47: So, let's call it allostactic demand.

00:36:50: so when they bring up That state to deal with whatever the demand is then oftentimes after that demand They help to bring themselves down and self-regulate With that that yawning.

00:37:03: I think the University of Gelf, gulf is how you pronounce it?

00:37:08: Well yeah i think they did a study with about... It's huge study at large sample maybe a thousand horses and one area that they found had pre-imposed yawning was around bridling.

00:37:23: so like the mechanics of the mouth

00:37:27: or if its not highly stressful

00:37:30: Oh, gotcha.

00:37:31: Yeah situation

00:37:31: for a horse because not everybody's careful about putting metal in the mouth and In fact there are some veterinarians that think a lot of this head shaking is due to what's called trigeminal neuralgia.

00:37:45: Trigeminal Neuralgia.

00:37:46: it's like this electric shock That runs down the trigemional nerve in human humans.

00:37:51: get at you humans.

00:37:53: oftentimes It's related to a dental procedure.

00:37:56: So if you stop and think about it, If You're not careful with that bit.

00:38:00: It would be like my taking a ball peen hammer maybe whack A couple of your molars.

00:38:06: That

00:38:06: Would Be highly stressful every time I get that Hammer out.

00:38:09: so it Makes sense that the horses either Preparing themselves for The Stressful event that's coming or they've gotten through it And now are yawning afterwards?

00:38:20: What i would tell you?

00:38:22: Your questions Are great And there are tons of questions we've never asked before, right?

00:38:28: We're just starting to ask.

00:38:30: We should have answers for it but we don't and so I would encourage everyone be your own scientist you already are.

00:38:39: Just be observant.

00:38:41: i've done this three times and this always seems To happen.

00:38:44: or do This with this horse let me try It With that Horse or I'll do it with these two horses and not with those other to, let's see if there is a difference that i can make out.

00:38:54: All of this great information!

00:38:57: Who knows?

00:38:58: You may be one of the people who are answering questions that need answer no-one addressing.

00:39:05: but think about yawning more.

00:39:07: try looking at context in which they yawn.

00:39:10: you wouldn't want say well their happy Yeah.

00:39:15: In fact, a neurochemical that is always used inaccurately is endorphins.

00:39:25: people think endorphin are happy thing.

00:39:27: oh I want my horse filled with endorphines.

00:39:30: you only get in door fence when pains involved what it stands for his indogenous morphine morphine your system.

00:39:39: so runners high if uh... You have to create pain can't get sitting on the couch.

00:39:45: You have to get to that point where you start to create pain and you get your second wind.

00:39:49: That's when people are runners high, so endorphins would be things that allow a horse to continue through an uncomfortable situation.

00:40:01: those will more typical of Endorphins.

00:40:04: So there is not happy drug we're tapping into.

00:40:08: And thats another problem.

00:40:10: I'm not going on the soap box completely But I think critical thinking because on the internet there are all kinds of things and you can go in look up Answers, and they may have a little bit of scientific jargon placed in them.

00:40:27: but II would recommend people Go to science direct or pub med Or Google scholar?

00:40:35: And ask their questions.

00:40:37: But not just necessarily.

00:40:38: You go.

00:40:39: take a look on on google.

00:40:42: There is a raw there actually as a pyramid of scientific evidence that scientists use and Up at the very top.

00:40:51: The gold standard it's looking out lots of studies with lots of horses, and Making sure that those studies are replicable.

00:41:01: meaning if somebody did this study in came up for the result then if somebody follows the same method, they should get the same result.

00:41:09: Right?

00:41:09: And then if someone else does it with a different kind of horse... They should get to the same results!

00:41:14: If you're not coming up for those same results than that's really showing us anything.

00:41:20: So at the very top are lots and lots and lot studies called meta-analysis.. ..and if we do get a LOT of studies over long periods saying the same thing.... That is the gold standard.

00:41:32: The very lowest rung on pyramid of evidence.

00:41:36: The lowest rung-of all is expert opinion, which is pretty interesting because in the horse world there's a lot of things that are just that

00:41:46: opinions.".

00:41:47: I thought

00:41:47: you were going to say like Facebook groups or something like that with everybody's opinions?

00:41:52: You know it's interesting here.

00:41:54: Here's another litmus test for people.

00:41:57: Is that good science...the scientist has to show why they got their results.

00:42:04: They have to prove that this is showing what I wanted it show.

00:42:09: So the burden on proving that to you, with a scientist.

00:42:13: Pseudo-science when they throw out conclusion but your are one who has to prove it.

00:42:22: The burden of you then proves its right or wrong.

00:42:26: That's not good science.

00:42:29: So fascinating!

00:42:32: the way you speak, and then also like your books.

00:42:37: Your presentations all of that is that you simplify these things for people so that it does make it... It's translatable And it's understandable.

00:42:45: So All Of Us Can Can Grasp.

00:42:48: I can't remember The Name Or The Nerve You Mentioned But i remember it was connected to the parasympathetic state with the saliva Right away.

00:42:55: doesn't matter if don't know the name or the nerve.

00:43:00: So, I really enjoy that and I really appreciate it.

00:43:05: And...I know you have a book that your currently working on if not two is correct?

00:43:11: You mentioned in the beginning that you're simplifying some of this neuroscience.

00:43:17: Right.

00:43:18: so once i retired I had a little bit of time to write things down.

00:43:23: I have things that've been written and banked from the long-time ago, just my own notes because i teach a horse brain science clinic.

00:43:31: And then My publisher said let's go ahead and publish some Of this stuff.

00:43:36: so one of The first ones That we We published was Horse Brain Science.

00:43:42: it is not an easy book.

00:43:44: It actually It meant to be a reference, but I've been told it's a readable reference which is good because i wanted To Be A well-worn Reference.

00:43:53: the book that's coming out in october Is horse brain science simplified and its just like you said.

00:44:01: I want Science to be Accessible to everyone And it should be not In some library Not too impress other scientists not to give somebody tenure But actually usable information.

00:44:15: Science belongs to everyone, and really that's a big part of my

00:44:20: mission.".

00:44:21: So horse brain science simplified was simply changing the language giving examples like you mentioned so that ah I know what this is!

00:44:34: You know i could put big terms on everything...to what purpose?

00:44:40: like this egotistical, ivory-tower guy.

00:44:44: Or I can say you know when this happens?

00:44:48: This is what how this occurs and go ahead in it... And i tell people don't believe me!

00:44:54: Go ask your horse because i know how nervous systems work..i know how brains work....and i know what the answer's going to be before you ask it.

00:45:03: but i want you to have that understanding.

00:45:06: I simplified the language, but the science is still just as deep.

00:45:16: I love that!

00:45:16: As we begin to wrap up a bit here... ...I also wanted to discuss about your welfare side of work.

00:45:24: and when you consider the brain of the horse or some practices people do on regular basis with horses competing or riding, are used for work purposes.

00:45:39: Or simply

00:45:43: pasture

00:45:44: mates those sorts of things whatever the human is bringing the horse into their life.

00:45:50: for what are some of the practices that may be harder to justify?

00:45:55: knowing the horses brain from a welfare perspective?

00:45:59: Well I've done plenty of research with animals that mammals that are allowed to be together with their own species and interact.

00:46:12: Then we put an animal in isolation, let's say these are mice or rats over six months.

00:46:20: if within dissect those brains out all the brains had social interaction way more.

00:46:27: If you look at them under a microscope there is all kinds of dendrites brain growth those in isolation way less and have it's almost like somebody went in with garden shears.

00:46:40: And, In fact they call that pruning.

00:46:42: They've pruned off those dendrites.

00:46:45: so Those brains are much less capable!

00:46:49: If you want a human analogy the Romanian orphans That had no interaction with people for long periods of time.

00:47:00: just that touch Just that human connection with another of their species was missing.

00:47:07: so they had tremendous cognitive and emotional problems as a result.

00:47:13: Let's take another look from the animal world, let's take a herbivore social animal in antelope prey animals that are jittery as well.

00:47:25: And I said, okay you're in charge we're going to put it... We're gonna have an enlightened zoo here to create great brains and our antelopes and their social animals.

00:47:34: You're in-charge of the antelope!

00:47:36: And i came back a month later and you've said..I got a perfect

00:47:40: solution!!

00:47:41: I've got them all locked in stalls and cages.

00:47:45: they can't see each other They can't touch each other.

00:47:49: It would be it would be absurd to think that.

00:47:53: but because we're so used To putting our horses in that situation and an argument I use to hear was well There are inexpensive horse, and I certainly don't want them to be injured.

00:48:06: They're a performance horse

00:48:07: Mm-hmm.

00:48:08: Well there's research is actually new book equine welfare.

00:48:11: I think he came out last year.

00:48:13: So one of those books the cost a hundred and fifty dollars And serenity by all kinds of scientists.

00:48:18: But anyway The research pretty robustly shows that the risk for injury is higher in horses that are isolated and made to stand in stalls than those who are out in pasture.

00:48:30: Well, when they get a chance to go out all hell breaks loose!

00:48:34: Oh yeah... They get total rebound And then we call our horse fractious This horse's causing problems.

00:48:41: Take your kid Stick him into a broom closet Feed them a bunch of Hershey bars Then let it out few days later.

00:48:47: And if he runs around the yard, would that surprise you?

00:48:50: If he's hooting and hollering.

00:48:53: Yeah I think The way we feed horses is also detrimental.

00:48:59: i Think in this been proving out as well Is that these sugary grains?

00:49:04: they go right through them.

00:49:06: They're designed for constant gut fill.

00:49:09: So if We give Them things like hey That taste takes four times As long to process then they have Constant Gut Fill.

00:49:16: but If we're putting these grains that are pre-processed and just go right through, now we have stomach acid against the endothelial lining.

00:49:25: And oftentimes what we do is create situations so stressful in our housing management and feeding taking them away from others of their own species.

00:49:37: they develop something called stereotypies.

00:49:41: The definition used to be repetitive behavior with no purpose.

00:49:46: What we now know is that the cortisol levels are sky-high and they're stressed.

00:49:52: And what, what they found was those repetitive behaviors actually are stress reducing.

00:49:58: so it's a great adjustment to an abnormal situation.

00:50:03: So our management strategies have worked against the horse.

00:50:09: Weaving has just taken away movement They tried make up for.

00:50:15: So I think if people go back to look at the five domains and looked that up, they'll start to see all of things out there.

00:50:23: We're getting more enlightened.

00:50:25: their track systems in past your paradise where horses can move.

00:50:30: If we fell dead what would our horses do?

00:50:34: Move and eat?

00:50:34: so i'd use a spectrum And with animals in zoos become more enlightened, that the closer we can get to their natural habitat.

00:50:50: The healthier they are.

00:50:52: maybe we can't get there but if were allowing for foreage We're getting closer.

00:50:58: If we're allowing them touch and interact with other horses Were Getting Closer?

00:51:03: If They Are Out Able To Move We're Getting Closer.

00:51:07: And so the closer you Can move That Dial Towards a Natural Habitat In terms of horse welfare, we'll have a healthier horse.

00:51:15: We will have a horse that's brain is optimized for learning...we want to keep them in the box!

00:51:21: We want to treat them as if they're machine and are living creature.

00:51:27: And If we can appreciate it That horse will show up for us.

00:51:32: You'll be amazed

00:51:35: So good.

00:51:36: Every rider listening or every equestrian listening could understand one thing about their horse's brain.

00:51:43: What would you want it to be?

00:51:45: Slow down.

00:51:46: we are always in such a hurry and We put those tasks on our agenda?

00:51:55: I don't think.

00:51:55: if you slowdown Because we have a hectic world, and we want everything to happen now If we rush past things in the brain can process them.

00:52:06: We're just gonna have to go back and fill in those gaps that we left there.

00:52:10: And if we left our horse with those gaps, then who put those in their?

00:52:16: We can't blame the horse for that!

00:52:18: We have take some responsibility...and I don't know anyone is going say you know

00:52:23: what?!

00:52:24: When it's so slow my Dagon Horse learn tons of

00:52:27: stuff!!

00:52:28: Their brain grew like a

00:52:30: flower!!!

00:52:31: So i dont think you could wrong..in fact I think it'll go a long way in your interaction with their nervous system because things that are rapid, things that aren't fast tend to cause confusion and tend to caused sympathetic arousal.

00:52:46: And if you want to be... If you wanna answer the question for your horse am i safe?

00:52:51: There's no better way than do that.

00:52:53: then slow down.

00:52:56: There is quote from years ago.

00:53:00: when something just sticks you don't have to think, what was that quote again?

00:53:05: It's just like it.

00:53:07: Yeah...it is a good one!

00:53:09: So take the time at takes.

00:53:12: so it takes less time and I always thought That's perfect.

00:53:18: Slow down to go fast.

00:53:19: Exactly Yes.

00:53:21: Try to go FAST You'll never get there.

00:53:23: Yeah Yeah It's SO GOOD.

00:53:26: Steve we have some rapid fire questions though We ask every podcast guest.

00:53:30: So its' just first thing.

00:53:31: thats comes to your mind.

00:53:33: Okay,

00:53:33: and the first one is do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

00:53:37: It's The Brain State not the behavior.

00:53:40: Hmm

00:53:42: Basically the behavior Is the end result And if we're blaming behavior it's because We didn't look at the brain state.

00:53:51: so brain state before Behavior.

00:53:53: hmm Very good who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

00:53:59: I'm gonna guess that You may be thinking that he's gonna come up with some big name in the horse world, some trainer.

00:54:07: I've learned not to guess anything about these interviews!

00:54:11: But actually both David Attenborough who just had his hundredth birthday and Carl Sagan because they invited people to observe... They have invited people the natural world and the wonder of the natural.

00:54:36: And I think you should feel that way towards your horse, they're part Of The Natural World and so are You!

00:54:41: So those Are Two Big Influences For Me.

00:54:45: If you could give a question in one piece of advice other than what you've already given What would it be?

00:54:51: Work with the nervous system instead of against It because if you stop for A Moment.

00:54:57: most of Those Issues are because you're working against the nervous system and things clear up so quickly when you work with the brain in the nervous systems.

00:55:09: And last one, please complete this sentence for me horses are...

00:55:16: Horses are a magnificent example of fascinating evolution!

00:55:24: You know?

00:55:25: For There are unique creatures in the animal kingdom.

00:55:30: Horses are more intelligent than we give them.

00:55:33: credit for some of these human experiments where if your horse can tell a star from triangle really aren't telling us much at all.

00:55:41: but, If you look what horses actually capable doing...Horses amaze me and they've been great teacher even down to cellular level.

00:55:53: Steve, where can people learn more about you?

00:55:55: Whether it's your upcoming events or your upcoming book.

00:55:58: Or your existing books all of the things.

00:56:01: Where Can People Learn More About You?

00:56:03: They can go to horsebrainscience.info and so The website will tell them about me.

00:56:09: what I'm up too And and the events i'm involved in and even didn't mention but just released was a horses life that I wrote with Mark Rashid and his wife Chrissy.

00:56:22: it seems to be doing quite well.

00:56:24: It's nineteen case studies, so you read these stories about horses and then you learn the science underwater supporting why they did what they did... So its like a neurological detective story!

00:56:38: I'd encourage you go on Amazon.

00:56:42: Awesome.

00:56:42: We're going to put everything in the show notes, so for everybody listening if you are interested and checking out The Website or The Books Or anything that um...that you want to involve yourself with relating to Dr.

00:56:53: Peters just scroll down And click on the link.

00:56:56: Thank You So much Steve For all of your knowledge.

00:56:59: Oh I truly enjoyed this.

00:56:59: Yeah!

00:56:59: Your a delightful host.

00:57:01: Thank you If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if could leave a rating and review as well share on social media.

00:57:12: You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA And check out our free seven day trial On wehorse dot com where access over one hundred seventy five courses with top trainers from around the World in variety of topics and disciplines Until next time.

00:57:30: be kind yourself your horses.