Understanding the Secrets of the Horse with Shelby Dennis

00:00:01: In this episode we're talking with Shelby Dennis, a professional horse trainer and behavioral consultant.

00:00:07: Because there's often multiple truths when looking at what is going on in horses.

00:00:13: Understanding my own motivations and my behaviors.

00:00:16: And like when I'm overstimulated or when I am stressed, then more likely to snap or be less focused or struggle in other ways with horses is very much the same When they're trigger stacked on their struggling with other things where there are an inadequate environment that's gonna come out of their behavior.

00:00:32: Welcome to The Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse.

00:00:36: My name is Danielle Kroll and i'm your host.

00:00:38: From the Arabian horse circuit to hunter-jumper, to dressage and exercising racehorses, Shelby Dennis's practical experience with different kinds of horses has made her a well rounded horse person.

00:00:50: And on top of our practical experience, Shelby has also taken several equine science based courses through University Of Wealth to work towards her certificate if equine Science choosing to emphasize her studies in education equine behavior.

00:01:06: In early twenty-twenty one, Shelby received her equine behavior consultant certification from the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants.

00:01:15: And The Understanding and Correct Application of Equine Learning Theory has allowed Shelby to hone her skills as a horseperson and continue modernizing her approach as trainer with emphasis on equine ethology an ethical practice.

00:01:28: Shelby attributes her history with horses too shaping hard working patient driven individuals.

00:01:33: she is today Also fun fact, this is Shelby's second interview with us as I originally chatted with her back in the spring of twenty-twenty three.

00:01:43: So i'm excited to see what she's up to now.

00:01:45: so let's dive in!

00:01:47: Shelby welcome back to The Wee Horse podcast.

00:01:50: it has been like crazy to think its...it's been about three years since last time that you were on episode twenty six.

00:01:56: we're now an episode..I think like one oh two or one oh three.

00:02:00: um so yeah It's been a little while and Welcome Back.

00:02:04: Yeah, thanks for having me.

00:02:05: Time flies!

00:02:06: I can't believe that much time has passed...

00:02:08: I know it absolutely does so.

00:02:11: For anybody who is new to your work or haven't listened in the previous interview with us Can you tell a little bit about your journey into horses?

00:02:21: What led you?

00:02:21: where are today?

00:02:23: So I started riding when I was four years old and I started out riding Arabian horses on the Arabian show horse circuit.

00:02:30: And my initial intro to horses, it's really punitive training, really harsh forceful training.

00:02:36: And I was taught things like you need to get after them.

00:02:39: You can't let them get away with that.

00:02:40: And initially my response is that I didn't want to be mean to the horses as they don't wanna hit him or kick them or risk hurting them.

00:02:47: but I was told things like oh if you don't get after then there are going to get a way of doing this.

00:02:51: so try someone else and it'll be your fault if they hurt someone else.

00:02:55: So over time, that kind of shaped my perspective four horses and how I needed to train them.

00:03:01: And it shaped my entire reality, especially being a child in a very insular breed show community where I was seeing a lot of the same things exemplified by everyone.

00:03:11: I truly didn't know that there were

00:03:13: alternatives.".

00:03:14: Then as the internet started taking shape and had more access for different people online...I joined social media websites when i was like young teenager at high school started to lead me to question things.

00:03:30: And then on top of that, when my family experienced financial hardship and we went bankrupts by Arabian show horse got moved from a show bar into a backyard style barn?

00:03:41: degrading way.

00:03:42: It was just, it wasn't a competition focused barn but he went from being in a stall paddock situation where he was stable for most of the day to be out on twenty acres with The Herd and basically overnight my Arabian who spooked at everything was bolting very difficult to handle at times.

00:03:58: He went from that To Basically Being Bomb Proof And That Was One Of The First Really Big Shifts I Had.

00:04:04: Because I hadn't changed any of My Training At The Time i Hadn'T Done Anything Other Than Provide Him With More Species Appropriate Care And I didn't even do it deliberately thinking that would be much better for him.

00:04:35: And then from there, I started to get more involved in riding different types of horses.

00:04:52: forceful methods that I'd been taught to use growing up would not work on him because when i tried To get after him and forced them to do things That he didn't want to do.

00:05:00: He, would literally square Up with me?

00:05:02: And it really exposed a lot of holes in my understanding Of horse behavior and training and He was the next big push to start studying horses from a scientific perspective, learning more about their behavior and why he was responding the way that he was.

00:05:17: And it was a slower shift from there because I was kind of trying new things and trying to learn how to apply different types of training methods.

00:05:25: And I was also a little bit in denial of the fact that so much of what I had learned wasn't necessarily the best way or wasn't even accurate in the first place.

00:05:34: That was really hard to come to terms with but he is huge catalyst for shifting my perspective and causing me to gain the education that I now have, taking it into where I am today.

00:05:45: So now i have my certificate of equine sciences from The University Of Guelph.

00:05:50: Im certified through IAABC as an Equine Behavior Consultant And im also done a little bit of like human psychology study in post-secondary which really helps start getting grasp on how mammals think and learn because theres so much crossover with mammalian nervous systems And it's really changed how I view the horse world today, How i want to show up in The Horse World Today because so many years growing up.

00:06:33: So

00:06:38: cool.

00:06:38: I also love that story you have with your original Arabian.

00:06:44: When i was nineteen, I bought a little Quarter

00:06:47: Horse Cross

00:06:48: and remember when went to go try her out?

00:06:51: She is in straight stall.

00:06:53: the barn was pitch black like there's no light at all looking around thinking theres not really any turnout here or if it you know, little paddocks.

00:07:08: I would even call them more of a corral honestly than a paddock and it was with a tonnef other farm

00:07:13: animals.

00:07:14: so iwas thinking like what is her living situation here?

00:07:18: Anyways...I bought her she-you know..i remember got onerand thought my gosh this just such a gentle horse!

00:07:28: And then I brought her to a barn where they were kept

00:07:31: in box.

00:07:31: stalls

00:07:36: flip to switch.

00:07:39: If you even approached her stall, not entered but approached it like she lunged over the door at you was just really aggressive and owners actually said that they need take this horse in go we're keeping here is safe.

00:07:56: So I brought her to a firm that was like, huge acreage.

00:08:00: They had like twenty-five horses and all lived out in the herd together.

00:08:03: And i remember...I thought..i'm never gonna see this horse again!

00:08:06: ..and she became looking back when i think oh what a gentle horse.

00:08:13: She's actually just very shut down You know?

00:08:16: And she would come running when you called her my the instructor that was there.

00:08:25: she had a you know lesson program and she was like could I use her in some of lessons like she's just such good whores.

00:08:31: And it was, you know really big eye opener for me at that time to look up original living conditions have like this shut down straight stall dark barn situation.

00:08:43: two moving into box stall and still not being ideal.

00:08:48: but her thinking, I have enough room to move around until these humans to f off basically.

00:08:53: And then to be turned out in this huge herd situation and finally feel like a horse again you know?

00:08:59: You really start just...to see her true personality um..and her real behavior which was Like a happy-go-lucky little horse.

00:09:12: It was an experience that I wish she didn't have, but i'm glad I was able to witness because it taught me so

00:09:17: much.

00:09:26: Being unhappy like it's not a personality.

00:09:34: It's a response to the environment and there are so many horses that I feel fall through the cracks because of things Like, people don't give them the chance To see if they'll do better And the environment plays such A huge role in their behavior.

00:09:46: Yeah absolutely i'd love to know too.

00:09:49: So you have a really diverse background?

00:09:51: You said...you started off with Arabians..I believe you did Things With thoroughbreds as well.

00:09:56: correct me If im wrong.

00:09:58: And so you have like a hunter-jumper background.

00:10:01: You have a racehorse background because it wasn't just, now I'm going to again correct me if i'm wrong and relay some of the information that I think I have here.

00:10:10: So you worked with racehorses helping to exercise them?

00:10:15: Then you also did an off the track throw bred retraining program.

00:10:19: is that right?

00:10:20: Yeah, so I galloped race horses on the track as an exercise rider and then through that like also before that i was already working with off-the-track their reds which is kind of what got me interested in wanting to work at the racetrack.

00:10:32: But as i started to gallop them i got even more access to getting them off the track and retraining.

00:10:41: Yeah okay.

00:10:41: so like the different breeds, I mean we have Dressage in there.

00:10:45: We obviously have the behavioral sciences and stuff as well.

00:10:49: with all of that diversity has it kind shifted how you see things or are looking at things?

00:10:56: There's really not any difference.

00:10:57: but we just seem to compartmentalize these horses because they're lumping them into different disciplines.

00:11:07: Yes and no.

00:11:07: Like I'd say that my experience with race horses on the track, it gave me a lot better of an understanding off-the-track thoroughbreds than why they behave.

00:11:19: seeing like vet checks and seeing what came up on the vet checks, getting a really good grasp of what problems horses typically had.

00:11:28: And at what ages?

00:11:30: That was very eye-opening.

00:11:31: so I found that it's interesting!

00:11:33: Also worked for a really great trainer where she is more progressive in considering the horses which i'm grateful about.

00:11:42: It shaped my perspective differently because there are people who I find in the horse world.

00:11:49: They'll have a much easier time pointing fingers at the racing industry as being very problematic and abusive.

00:11:54: And my experience with all of these disciplines is that, All of the ethical problems we see in one discipline are present elsewhere.

00:12:02: It's just in varying severities and different degrees.

00:12:05: like I don't view The Racing Industry As any ethically worse than most other competitive disciplines.

00:12:12: it's worse in certain aspects and also very visible so people can't hide what they're doing as much whereas the show world is very hush-hush.

00:12:21: You hear about horrible things to horses, even being caught publicly but people sweep under the rug because its a lot harder for general public.

00:12:37: Generally speaking, I'd say that there's a lot of consistency across the board for all horse sports with the ethical issues we see in belief systems people hold.

00:12:46: In my experience working on different breed types like the Arabians and TheraBreads because those are two of some of the most misunderstood breeds.

00:12:53: My experiences with these breeds is they're not more spooky or difficult than other breeds.

00:13:01: They seem very sensitive generally speaking and in tune with their environment.

00:13:08: So I think that they're less resilient to coping with certain stressors without having it be outwardly visible, but largely what we attribute to breed specific traits like that stem from the care practices most of them are under because with Arabian show horses a lot of them were stabled far too much.

00:13:26: Racehorses pretty much across the board in North America are stable at the racetrack stemming from the shared trauma of the environment that these horses are growing up in rather than being specific to their breeds.

00:13:41: So, that's something I've also noticed too where it is like this misunderstood breed and a lot people don't like because they're difficult.

00:13:48: A lot of the dislike actually stems for the fact that can get away with putting them into subpar conditions or mistreating them at the same extent as other breeds such as quarter-horses tend adaptable horses in the sense that they can put up with a lot of stuff without completely losing the plot, which is why trainers could get away doing things like hard tying them and not have as many accidents.

00:14:14: As you might see with hotter blooded horses.

00:14:17: All right I had two questions stemming from that.

00:14:19: The first one if anybody follows me on social media They probably know your quite outspoken about horse welfare And I would love to know, do you feel that the industry is changing for the better?

00:14:31: Because we are seeing more awareness of things.

00:14:37: We're seeing people being a little bit more educated on certain practices.

00:14:43: So do think it's changing for The Better or Do You Still Think There Is Some Major Blind Spots?

00:14:49: I think that the people in it are like, especially the younger generations are changing for the better.

00:14:54: But I do think that The competition industry as a whole is kind of digging their heels and not wanting to see that change or trying to discourage People from believing That changes possible Or that its beneficial.

00:15:06: So i Think there's two truths There where theres A lot Of resistance Especially with die hard traditionalists Like people who've been In the industry For years And don't want To reflect on practices.

00:15:18: But then there's a lot of people who are starting to shift.

00:15:21: So I think what we're gonna see is that, there's going be more people Who were wanting to engage in welfare first practices?

00:15:27: but at the same time We're Gonna See an increase and People resisting That And Getting Louder In Their Resistance Because The More People That Start To Shift Practices The More Threatened Those You Don't Want To Change Become.

00:15:41: The Horse Industry Is Very Much A Reflection Of The State Of The World

00:15:44: All

00:15:48: right, my second question from that is you had said about there's some very highly intelligent horses.

00:15:55: That people just don't seem to understand and so they kind of lump them as a category?

00:16:00: And so you have also spoken openly about neurodivergence and how that intersects with interspecies communication.

00:16:07: I would love to know like understanding yourself has changed the way.

00:16:15: So I grew up not knowing that i was neurodivergent because I got diagnosed in my twenties and so a lot of my life was spent feeling ashamed Of what I couldn't do or What i struggled with compared to other people.

00:16:30: Meanwhile, there were also A lot of strengths that i had That other people couldn't Do but i was made To feel inadequate for not being able to fit into a box And be obedient in the way.

00:16:39: That neurotypical People might Be in classes and like getting distracted less and whatnot.

00:16:45: But as i came to learn more about myself?

00:16:50: specific to having ADHD.

00:16:52: And they do make certain things more challenging, but there's also a lot of great strengths that I have.

00:16:57: where I have found in comparison with people who are neurotypical...I'm more capable of abstract thinking and thinking with nuance than many other people which is a blessing and a curse because i find it very frustrating talking about people who can only perceive things from the black-and-white perspective.

00:17:15: But this has allowed me all of the shades as a picture when it comes to horses, because there's often multiple truths.

00:17:24: When we're looking at what is going on with horses and Understanding my own motivations and my behaviors.

00:17:30: And like when I'm overstimulated or when i'm stressed, that I more likely to snap Or be less focused or struggle in other ways with horses is very much the same When they're trigger stacked on their struggling With other things where there are an inadequate environment.

00:17:44: That's going To come out of Their behavior.

00:17:47: learning More about myself and The pressures that was put under for school It has given me more compassion For the horse because ultimately a lot Of people's expectations are super unfair, where we want them to be perpetually obedient and never offer us any resistance or problems even when perpetually stressed and they're not having any help with that stress.

00:18:16: And the don't have an adequate environment to live in their needs aren't being met, it would be completely unreasonable.

00:18:30: We're holding horses to a higher standard of behavior than what we hold ourselves and other humans too, which really is unfair because ultimately we are the ones that have the most say over their lives.

00:18:41: Over what they're doing and the capacity to educate yourselves in learn more develop more context.

00:18:49: I love that you know?

00:18:50: That perspective like that awareness so your able to give to our audience and myself included.

00:18:56: You Know Like you had said two lower our expectations a little bit of these animals that, you know are doing their best on it.

00:19:05: On a day-to-day given the environment we provide for them and to have more compassion or empathy for humans and horses all mammals really.

00:19:18: so yeah I love that awareness.

00:19:21: when we look at your latest book The Second Book That You've Now Written Secrets Of The Horse Do you speak to that within the book?

00:19:30: Yes.

00:19:30: Yeah, I talk about neurodivergence and some of my experiences growing up And how i was pressured by teachers or treated a certain way and How I feel that mirrors A lot of the expectations That we have Of horses where essentially We are expecting them To fit into The world that we've constructed and built for our convenience and do so without making mistakes Or disrupting Our schedules and needs.

00:19:53: It's not a very fair sentiment to hold.

00:19:55: So I found that there is a lot of parallels you can draw between the conformity expected of neurodivergent people in society typically favors how neurotypical people think, feel and engage with their environment And what we do to horses.

00:20:11: There are mirrors drawn for sure For a neurodiversionate person having access.

00:20:19: Being able to interact with them and animals in general is really healing because they don't judge you.

00:20:26: And there are a lot more honest with their behavior, You don't have to read between the lines or code.

00:20:33: There's no social graces that shift and change depending on where your are.

00:20:38: It's a lot cut and dry.

00:20:39: So for me being able watch animals learn about their behaviour Is something I enjoy much.

00:20:46: It's much lower stress than interacting with people, even though horses can still be dangerous.

00:20:52: But they're typically a lot more clear what their behavior.

00:20:55: then people

00:20:56: are.

00:20:56: Yeah absolutely Since it is.

00:21:00: we're now on the topic of like clarity.

00:21:03: The title was called Secrets Of The Horse.

00:21:04: Can you tell us what that title means?

00:21:07: So most of the things in there aren't actually secrets, but they're things that are like overlooked and not paid attention to.

00:21:14: so In essence too a lot people They Are Secrets because they're Not Things That Are Widely Taught!

00:21:19: In our industry I think one Of The Most Shocking Things Is That There Are So Many Practicing Professionals And Trainers Who Have No Real Concepts Of Learning Theory Or Operant Conditioning how they are affecting behavioral change in the horse from a scientific perspective.

00:21:37: And every, everything is a science.

00:21:39: so this isn't even to say to people like oh you have become scientists but understanding what causes an effect of what your doing create behavioral changes and understand a prerequisite before offering any type of professional services or speaking as an expert.

00:21:57: But in our industry, it's very uncommon.

00:22:00: there is this massive lack of understanding the science behind training and having empirical evidence information to back claims.

00:22:09: A lot of it stems from tradition belief systems status and elitism that has oftentimes founded competition prowess and how well, like how much someone has won in competition.

00:22:21: And that is used as their symbol of knowing.

00:22:27: It's very problematic because ultimately the lens we need to be looking at horses through Is pretty irrelevant if it is obtained with excess force and comes at the expense of the welfare.

00:22:42: The horse, so yes horses can do a lot of amazing athletic feats.

00:22:45: they're incredibly Athletic in talented animals And their very smart and there are very trainable.

00:22:50: but ultimately none Of those skill sets matter If They come At the Expense to the Welfare of the Horse?

00:23:00: Looking at what your horse's behavior says and what they're likely experiencing.

00:23:04: And starting to train in a way that prioritizes the well-being of the horse, instead of just fixating on getting results for the human but often come at the expense of the wellbeing of the horses.

00:23:19: Yeah I fully agree with all of this.

00:23:26: the placing of authority on somebody based on, you know what they've won.

00:23:31: Specifically when it's like that can really have very-very-very... Like somebodies resume from a competition perspective can have very little weight When it comes to their actual knowledge On welfare and behavior of an animal.

00:23:49: Yes, especially when you factor in how much privilege is often involved to have access.

00:23:53: It shows in the first place because there's a lot of incredible horse people that will never get to be seen on a public level like that because they simply can't afford too and That doesn't cancel out their talent.

00:24:05: So that's also something that I've really shifted away from Because it was a hard spot for me growing up because I was so competition minded initially And then my family lost all over money did, and watching how people in my life started to devalue me when that happened.

00:24:22: When nothing had changed other than the fact made it pretty clear that it's not really just about talent and desire to do well.

00:24:35: It's also about who can pay to be part of that club, And while some people don't come from money still manage to make it top.

00:24:43: they are the exception if you look at the privilege for most of them.

00:24:48: so there is a lack of variety in types being given voices involved.

00:24:59: that ultimately erases the voices of people who are self-made and have experienced, done amazing things with horses but don't have the capacity or desire to show it on a public scale in the limelight at competitions.

00:25:15: Such good point!

00:25:17: I remember when i was growing up Same thing, didn't come from a ton of money.

00:25:23: By no means in the poverty level but very middle class and my parents, they said if we're gonna buy you a horse at that time everybody was fitting on a pony.

00:25:37: And I said were not going to get something then we have to resell it by some thing else in everything like that way.

00:25:42: don't need the road of anything.

00:25:45: so just getting your horse and what they could afford wasn off-the-track bread.

00:25:51: me at twelve years old and it's very big learning experience for me but I had a really hard time fitting in because i was treated very differently.

00:26:05: you know on this horse that both of us were trying to learn together basically.

00:26:12: Meanwhile everybody else was doing their pony hunters and everything like that, I ended up actually leaving horses when i was younger because it had such a privilege in elitism vibe which is really sad for not only children but also adults who who are doing this because they love it and they loved the animal.

00:26:41: And, you know have a hard time whether its emotionally or financially or at combination of two.

00:26:51: Absolutely yeah.

00:26:52: It's really hard too if don't come from money.

00:26:54: A lot people having to train up their own horses Even just like sitting in that process where your slowly having bring up green horse.

00:27:03: A lot of people don't respect that as talent when you're jumping like little cross rails and whatnot, but it's a different type people who are competing at the top, a lot of them don't start their own horses.

00:27:15: They get already made horses that they're then riding but there's a lack of appreciation and respect for the people that made those horses to that point for those professionals to get And The People Who Are At The Top In The Limelight Often Get All Of The Credit.

00:27:29: Meanwhile There'S People In The Background That Ultimately Without Them They Wouldn'T Be Able To Do What They'Re Doing Because They Aren'T The Ones Actively Training The Horses To That Point.

00:27:38: Absolutely Apart from what we've already discussed, including neurodivergence.

00:27:44: Are there any other big conversations within the horse world that you're hoping that the book Secrets of The Horse will either challenge or expand upon?

00:27:55: There's a few like the one.

00:27:56: big one is about management and how it influences behavior.

00:27:59: So, It's very common for horses to be kept alone And in small areas.

00:28:04: As as social herd animal its really sad that we're In twenty-twenty six so that That Is still widely debated because from A scientific perspective Its not up For debate ,it IS what it is.

00:28:14: I often say these things Very bluntly and it offends people.

00:28:16: But when you are just talking About empirical evidence & science You don't bring emotions into The picture of how people feel about it.

00:28:25: Horses are social herd animals, the way that a lot of them are kept is damaging and creates a lot behavioral issues that then covered up with harsher equipment, harser training and harsier attitudes towards the horse.

00:28:38: so management is huge one.

00:28:39: if we were to address the management issue in the horse world A lot of the quote-unquote need for harsh equipment would go away because the behaviors they're needing try control through that harsh were more adequately met.

00:28:55: And then the other aspect that I touch on in the book, and it's a really important one is looking at the historical use of horses.

00:29:02: until relatively recently they were pretty much exclusively used as work animals to work farms as transports as vehicles during war and The training have them has largely been shaped from their original youth.

00:29:17: so there was not seen much change.

00:29:20: the average use of horses is for pleasure and pleasure riding, and competition riding.

00:29:26: For fun by humans it's no longer a necessity.

00:29:30: but we're still approaching training in the same way where there's not The room being left to consider getting the means to end in training and achieving certain results when there's no longer this need.

00:29:45: To do that, like you're not going to not be able to feed your family because you can't ride your horse.

00:29:50: You're not gonna miss going to work because he can't write your horse.

00:29:53: so There is no longer these dire needs for horses to be used.

00:29:57: in a way they are And we have capacity more considerate of their well being now Because They Are No Longer In Necessity For Building The World We Live On.

00:30:05: Yet A Lot Of The Training And Handling Practices That We've Learned About Horses Still stem from back in that time.

00:30:12: And there has not been that much change and adaptation, like even looking at things like horse shoes.

00:30:17: if you look at the traditional design of the metal horseshoe we're seeing more changes now in recent years but it is still widely used to just use this traditional steel horseshoe with no frog support despite all the research We have showing that horses need frog support for their horse To function properly and further hooves to be healthy.

00:30:39: the industry, there's still been that very little shift.

00:30:42: And we're also not riding horses on concrete and hard ground most of time anymore or for same level distance.

00:30:50: they were being used back in day when horse shoes first came about.

00:30:53: so a lot things I do think are steeped are very resistant to change, even in the presence of a wealth of information that supports the need for change.

00:31:05: People are still openly rejecting information and a lot of these studies we have they've been replicated for decades.

00:31:13: so it's not like this.

00:31:14: information is new.

00:31:16: its just where.

00:31:17: thats slow in the horse industry, which is one of the biggest problems that we face as well.

00:31:24: The lack of acceptance and empirical evidence.

00:31:26: because it's not coming from people who are preaching gospel at top sport even though They aren't the authority voice on horse welfare and behavior, and physiology.

00:31:40: And biology because they're.

00:31:42: that's not their area of expertise.

00:31:44: it's there writing and we are talking about how to do a grand pre-dressage test or jump in meter sixty course were talking with the ethics behind How The Training To Get There Was Achieved.

00:31:56: That is all like.

00:31:57: I just want to highlight an underline.

00:31:59: Asterix everything you said absolutely the idea that we're not riding horses in a war, they are no longer the main way for us to harvest our fields and put food on the table.

00:32:19: They're no longer building our roads or highways anything like that.

00:32:22: so the fact is still training them as if need be obedient to move society forward.

00:32:34: It's absolutely ridiculous.

00:32:37: And it is such a good point, so I'm so glad you brought that up!

00:32:43: So-so-so glad... I just recently few weeks ago interviewed Dr.

00:32:47: Steve Peters here on the podcast who um as a neuroscientist

00:32:52: and studies

00:32:54: Yeah he studies the horse's brain and so what was really interesting episode about like Horse Brain vs Human Brain And I would love to know from the behavioral perspective as well, is that if we know that horses don't communicate the way humans do.

00:33:12: What are some ways maybe unintentionally making training harder because we're still looking at things for human

00:33:20: lens?

00:33:21: I think one of the biggest ways people do that is with like, the desensitization process.

00:33:25: Of getting horses used to new things.

00:33:27: there's this attitude where we're like oh i know This isn't scary!

00:33:30: I know this Isn't dangerous.

00:33:31: therefore my horse Is overreacting and they should be calm at The pace That I introduce it bad, even when they're showing me their not.

00:33:40: And a lot of times people are introducing things way too fast and if they just slowed down A little bit They would get better results because they wouldn't ignite that high stress response by going to quickly.

00:33:52: There's also this attitude too.

00:33:54: If the horse spooks at same thing multiple time so like oh they know what is there being silly but it fails to recognize as flight animals.

00:34:03: Horses have survived and adapted to be suspicious of anything that a predator could a horse, and that's how they have been wired to survive.

00:34:20: So they need to be suspicious of

00:34:22: change.".

00:34:23: And the other thing I think people get caught up in—and this is where human ego becomes a massive problem—is this idea our sensory experience has the same as the horses.

00:34:32: Horses are way better at hearing than we can see or hear from them because their sense to notice these things.

00:34:48: And we've also grown up in a world that largely serves us and where there's not as many potential threats to harm us, so Bottom line, even if your horse is spooking at something that you think it's really silly.

00:35:10: That doesn't change the reality of their fear like they're not faking being afraid there.

00:35:15: Fear experience is real and If You Think They're Spooking At Something Silly It Is Your Job As Their Trainer And Handler To Show Them That They Can Feel Safe Because The Fear Response Comes From A Lack Of Feeling Safe.

00:35:28: One Thing That Will Never Make Horses Feel More Safe Is Getting Mad At Them For That Response Escalating The Amount Of Fear That You Are Introducing Into Their Life or just making it even harder to cope.

00:35:38: You have to help them learn how to regulate in those moments and come down from that stress response, feel safe And thats ultimately what builds resilience.

00:35:46: but unfortunately a lot of horse training is more about maintaining that stressful stimulus until the horse seizes.

00:35:55: The outward reaction without addressing the internal state, so yes they're now frozen and there no longer reacting but they don't feel calm.

00:36:02: So you've never actually improved their capacity to regulate.

00:36:05: You just taught them That they can't affect change in Their environment And then They Just have To shut down and cope because the issue is not going to go away?

00:36:20: autonomy and no agency in their life.

00:36:23: And that things just happen to them in training, Creates a chronically stressed horse and eventually, A lot of these horses will find something that is fear provoking enough That it overrides the shutdown response.

00:36:38: And then you get this big explosive reactions Or especially things like where if The rider eventually falls off or loses control Of the horse?

00:36:54: presence to the horse feeling overwhelmed and having no choice.

00:36:58: And never actually getting to achieve safety around you, You're not going to be someone that they look for when their afraid.

00:37:03: but if your train in a way where it's about creating safety and relaxation even If your horse spooks does get away They might run little bit of distance away But generally come right back because they feel safer around you and want to seek safety.

00:37:16: That is what happens at a herd setting.

00:37:18: so while know we aren't horses it helps us in training because they'll seek us out when we feel unsafe and they seek us for support.

00:37:28: But if you're their primary cause of stress, then that's not going to happen.

00:37:32: Absolutely!

00:37:34: Are you feeling inspired?

00:37:35: put as much focus on your end-of-the-partnership?

00:37:38: As your horses.

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00:38:23: Which is perfect for those days at the bar when you just want a quick dose of training inspiration before your ride Or in this case To ground and feel more mindful and present Before meeting your horse.

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00:38:47: We can't wait to see when they're, and now back to the episode.

00:38:50: Also too acknowledging that you know

00:38:53: like

00:38:54: two different horses can have two very very different responses in reactions And so we need to not kind of be aware of that When we are training because if were working with one horse maybe this is sort Of their response.

00:39:08: So This Is The Way That We Then Respond and then switch it and work With a Different Horse.

00:39:14: I'm thinking of my two horses.

00:39:15: So here on, um... On my property-I have three!

00:39:17: I have My Two Horses, a mare and a gelding.

00:39:19: And then I've got a foster pony.

00:39:21: And MY MARE AND MY GELDING are polar opposites in terms of their confident levels And you know the way that i work with them.

00:39:32: My mare is very confident.

00:39:34: She's super sure herself.

00:39:35: she has y'know The little herd leader And my gelding Is he.

00:39:42: He is not.

00:39:43: Um, he's an unconfident little guy.

00:39:46: and

00:39:47: I remember one day um i was in my ring And i'm in the woods so i'm completely surrounded by trees And you know we're always in...you know if we go on The Ring it's the same thing We have.

00:39:59: the One Location were Not Traveling Around It's You Know Nothing's Changed.

00:40:04: And She Was Really Really Spooky.

00:40:06: They Kept Thinking Like There's really no reason that he is like this, but I'm gonna believe what he says.

00:40:13: And so i'm going to completely switch gears from what we were going to be doing and we're going do something different.

00:40:19: you know a lot more just chill sort of more relationship focused groundwork rather than what was going to do with lunging and getting his stimulus up in all the stuff.

00:40:33: And I come to find out later that my father-in-law who lives next door, we have a trail system.

00:40:38: That kind of runs.

00:40:39: there's wood separating between the ring and the trail system but it was probably like fifty feet of woods... ...and he was walking his German shepherds along with trail system!

00:40:52: And i had no idea.. My human senses did not pick up on that his horse senses did.

00:41:00: And I feel like if i had have been, get over it there's nothing here.

00:41:04: you're in this ring all the time!

00:41:06: You know?

00:41:07: It wouldn't of gone well especially for his sensitive little self.

00:41:13: and so when I believed him um...and therefore changed our plan Um..it was almost like....I don't we were able to de-escalate situation a bit.

00:41:26: Absolutely, I think that's the thing.

00:41:28: is listening to them and giving their benefit.

00:41:29: The benefit of this out it builds resilience over time And then you don't run into those issues as often.

00:41:35: But i think a lot people get caught up in the moment with Their plan and they'll be like oh And then they get so set on that, but in the long run it ends up slowing things down and creating more problems because the emotional state of the horse isn't being prioritized.

00:41:52: Ultimately all behavioral issues we see are driven by an inner-state that the horse is feeling.

00:41:58: So you need to be mindful about this training.

00:42:01: Yeah absolutely It's like a quote You're not training the horse you had yesterday.

00:42:07: Your'e not training a horse, your'll have tomorrow and you are training today.

00:42:16: Dominance base thinking which is kind of that same line we have here again.

00:42:20: your work often challenges them when I say dominant space thinking and you can elaborate on this course but it's like what we just said get over.

00:42:31: Because I said so adding gear all those different things Is there a reason why you think it's so deeply rooted in the horse world, even above and beyond like this idea of traditionalism or following these quote leaders in the way that they've always done.

00:42:48: I

00:42:50: do think that there's massive ties to a patriarchal mindset and how people approach horse training, in fact.

00:42:56: A lot of it is about feeling powerful an inflicting power over another being and viewing that as a win.

00:43:03: And i think the biggest issue with dominance-based Training Is That It Prioritized Obedience Above All Else?

00:43:10: And Thats Really The Standard That People Are Looking To Set!

00:43:13: And It Also Carries This Sense Of Entitlement Where You Feel Entitled way, whether you've earned that or not.

00:43:21: And ourselves and all animals like we're all individual beings who will feel different on any day of the week?

00:43:29: Like wether were feeling well or poorly mentally or physically.

00:43:34: our experience still matters in a lot of dominance based thinking surrounds this idea that any misbehavior on the part of the horse is a slight against you and an attempt to disrupt some made-up hierarchical system.

00:43:48: And that's not what horses are thinking, like they.

00:43:51: if you watch horses in a natural setting with how they interact in herds especially when their more far removed from people?

00:43:57: Like They very much want to see harmony!

00:43:59: Like wild horse herds.

00:44:01: yes You can absolutely capture stallions fighting but If you actually watched those fights often times there fairly short lived There're lots breaks, there's lots of running away and they don't fight as anywhere near as often is what people might think.

00:44:14: They're just a more documented thing when try to seek harmony.

00:44:22: They don't want to have conflicts, they don't wanna there be problems and a lot of conflict stems from unmet needs or being stressed for being put in situations where their uncomfortable.

00:44:34: And the dominance based thinking.

00:44:36: as far is I'm concerned it's this human sense of entitlement too.

00:44:40: having power over another being no matter what?

00:44:43: From that sense of entitlement creates this dynamic.

00:44:46: were its you versus the horse rather than Ultimately, we love to talk in the horse industry about how it's this beautiful partnership and how the horse is first all of time.

00:44:58: But if you actually break down the common themes that people are thinking or justifications on training It often times not true at practice because a partnership implies there's mutual value in communication either side.

00:45:12: But in a lot of horse training, if the horses ever communicating something that the person doesn't want to hear it's viewed as a problem.

00:45:18: And it's like oh no you can communicate just not like that.

00:45:21: so or The only communication That's really accepted is communication that falls in line at the obedience that people feel entitled To.

00:45:28: and ultimately Obedience has No basis In welfare.

00:45:33: Like there's definitely things Horses need to learn for safety purposes and whatnot.

00:45:37: but obedience isn't an indicator of like a happy, well-adjusted horse.

00:45:43: You can have a highly obedient horse that's extremely shut down and unhappy.

00:45:47: And a lot of the dominance based mindsets create that as an inevitability.

00:45:52: because ultimately if you feel entitled to obedience all of the time ,you're going to have to walk over your horses' communication and ignore what they are trying say .and view their behavior through lens being a problem.

00:46:03: The other issue with this is I think it creates horses who very little self preservation initially will attempt to communicate like, hey actually I'm in pain right now.

00:46:14: But then that's very quickly overridden.

00:46:15: so they're placed in situations where their working through discomfort and end up causing long-term injuries.

00:46:26: people aren't listening to the earlier science because they're viewing any unwanted behavior as disobedience or something, to disrupt the dominance hierarchy.

00:46:35: And that's it's just not how horses think.

00:46:37: It's not founded in any sort of scientific fact is a very humanistic perspectives.

00:46:42: if you look at How we operate and society there's A Very hierarchical structure.

00:46:46: That's about obedience and status and obeying People simply Because They said so and like oh but viewing respect As obedience when really?

00:46:55: They're Not The Same Thing.

00:46:56: You can deeply respect someone and still disobey them, because ultimately people are not entitled to your obedience.

00:47:03: And that doesn't mean you don't respect somebody just beacause they're

00:47:11: gonna listen at the

00:47:24: time.".

00:47:26: Horse galloping through a field, when in reality so much of the horse world is actually

00:47:34: like

00:47:35: bits and spurs.

00:47:36: And tight reins and enclosed fences...and you know everything like that!

00:47:40: It's kind of exact opposite to this idea people have with horses.

00:47:44: it's be beautiful free and graceful but not too much To me its very patriarchal patriarchal comparison.

00:47:56: It's so similar to the same way that you know, The Patriarchy is with women as well.

00:48:02: be beautiful and all of the things but not too much

00:48:08: And I just find

00:48:09: it really interesting how again its like this idea That our human expectation we place on them for what WE want to quote do WITH THEM And yeah, the way that we want them to be.

00:48:28: So I just...I find it fascinating and heartbreaking what you said was so profound in your outlook on

00:48:37: it.

00:48:38: Yeah i definitely think that unfortunately something that we're going need to unpack is how much of a horse value or whether they are treated with kindness is rooted because ultimately if we love horses for who they are, that love should maintain whether were capable of using them for our desires or not.

00:49:02: Absolutely I say this all the time with my mare Soda when she was about five or six and she had a pelvic injury which actually it was before cause we discovered there's scar tissue.

00:49:17: so we don't really know what happened.

00:49:19: i got her And she slowly started to have more and more issues with it.

00:49:26: So, when I got her... She was like this horse that the horse industry would say has so much potential had a really bright future ahead of her.

00:49:36: then all of that were starting be taken away.

00:49:40: The amount people said get rid off while you still can.

00:49:44: It's disgusting for me!

00:49:47: She lives most beautiful little happy life here you know, on my property doing whatever she wants to do at this point.

00:49:57: And it was a really big wake-up call in the perspective of worth not only from the expectation that we put on horses based upon what we paid for them.

00:50:10: well I payed this much so you have to live upto or they're breeding all of those different things, it's really wild to think about the cost-of-worth versus inherent worth.

00:50:33: Yeah and like horses don't get their price tag or what they're bred for either.

00:50:37: so that way is so heavily on how they are ultimately treated as just such an injustice.

00:50:42: Yeah

00:50:43: absolutely harm reduction.

00:50:47: What does this mean?

00:50:48: And why does it matter?

00:50:50: So this is one where I find that there's a lot of conflicts pertaining to what people view as harm reduction in the horse world.

00:50:59: I view harm reduction is that like everyone is on their own journey.

00:51:12: And with how prevalent misinformation, isn't the horse world and how limited people might feel to access It, it just has to start with making the changes that you can.

00:51:25: So like harm reduction for example could be if your in a lesson barn or you're leasing a horse then ultimately don't have full control over... You've got control of your behavior and how hard do you apply the aids?

00:51:38: Do you have control on how you treat them?

00:51:40: The level of understanding they provide is how you handle yourself at those moments.

00:51:46: so thats an example of harm reduction!

00:51:51: go, they're still stable for too much and their showing signs that might have ulcers.

00:51:56: But you can't treat a horse is not yours for an issue That's Not Yours To Treat.

00:52:01: but what You Can Do Is Be More Understanding Of Them.

00:52:04: So that would be An Example of Harm Reduction.

00:52:05: Then With People Who Own Horses looking at their life.

00:52:10: If they're in a situation where they don't have the ideal amount of turnout, what can you do an immediacy to improve it?

00:52:16: You could get enrichment and things like hay balls or set up grooming stations for free-choice access to hay on a net so that people are never running out.

00:52:27: This is something most boarding facilities might otherwise just feed them a few flakes couple times per day but eat quickly then go hours without.

00:52:35: That's when your immediate control to start to reduce harm.

00:52:39: You can also look at the equipment that you're using, if your horse is really difficult to ride without harsh equipment he could go back to groundwork and work on teaching regulation from the ground before continuing to push up the levels If your horses running through a bit over jumps or they are showing signs of discomfort in other aspects of their riding.

00:53:02: And ultimately, all you can do is respond to things with your current level of knowledge and what resources you have available.

00:53:07: But I think a huge part of harm reduction Is rather than looking at What You Think You Can't Do Look At What You Can Do because i think that's one Of the biggest issues I see in The Horace world where we talk about ethics and welfare of horses.

00:53:19: if people are like oh well Like it's unrealistic To do x y z not everyone can do That It's Okay.

00:53:24: Well What Can You Do?

00:53:26: What can you do to improve your horse's situation?

00:53:28: instead of fixating on where you're limited?

00:53:30: Look at what are manufactured by the self and what they're willing or not willing to do.

00:53:53: And I think that unpacking is a really important part of showing up for your horse because sometimes if you live in major urbanized city, If you want to have a horse that you provide adequately for meeting their needs You might be needing to commute forty-five minutes to an hour To more suitable place.

00:54:14: We have to look at the choices we make, because if it is more of a priority to have a close commute to The Barn even though its putting your horse in situation where they're being stable twenty plus hours per day or more and impacting their mental health.

00:54:26: For the horse that's huge sacrifice for human driving little bit extra yes thats more gas time but for benefit of the horse should be no brainer.

00:54:38: so I do think harm reduction involves having difficult conversations with yourself being dramatically honest about what is actually in your control versus what isn't, because a lot of times we have more options than what we think.

00:54:56: This conversation has so beautifully led to my final question within this which is the idea of ego death.

00:55:04: So everything that we've kind of talked about it has to do essentially with humans' ego.

00:55:08: You know whether its expectation for the horse or plans We had set out before that were unwilling really is a summary of, you know the ego in many ways.

00:55:18: And so I would love to know this idea of the ego death In terms of horsemanship and horse ownership.

00:55:29: So for me, the ego death largely stemmed from the fact that so much of my identity had been built around horses and how I showed up for them.

00:55:36: And what I believed that I knew?

00:55:39: So starting to come to terms with that, I knew a lot less than I thought and then I'd been taught a lot of things incorrectly in that essentially it's relearned and reconfigured.

00:55:47: so much Of what I believe about horses on top.

00:55:50: also like The more you study horse behavior ,the more blatantly clear It becomes chronically stressed, so many horses are.

00:55:58: And initially there's this certain level of resistance to accepting that because accepting it means looking at... the world honestly now and going, wow like a huge portion of horses I worked with were chronically stressed in displaying stress behaviors.

00:56:11: A huge portion Of The Horses winning at the upper levels are showing severe signs of stress And it's a lot more comfortable to deny that go.

00:56:18: Oh no!

00:56:18: The science must be wrong.

00:56:19: That can't Be True.

00:56:21: And that is serving your ego To make yourself More Comfortable In that moment Because information Is so hard to sit With.

00:56:27: So this concept of Ego Death.

00:56:30: They're really uncomfortable journey of coming to terms with the reality that exists outside what you have built in your own reality and been taught.

00:56:46: allow for the openness of something else to be rebuilt.

00:56:49: And it's a really scary process because when you're in the midst In the midst of that, what you do kind of realizes how much of the belief systems and goals that you've set were actually heavily influenced by.

00:57:21: What other people taught you to believe in?

00:57:23: What are their people made?

00:57:25: the standard for like?

00:57:26: oh these should be.

00:57:27: your goal is if he want to be a good horse rider this is what you should strive.

00:57:30: or but A lot of those things they're highly subjective and not necessarily rooted actual successes or what good horse welfare is.

00:57:41: And it's about redefining, because success doesn't only exist when you're competing at the Olympics.

00:57:47: Successes helping horses who need your help to achieve better welfare, making a difference in the lives of the animals that you connect with personally.

00:57:56: You don't need to be doing these big waves or being the limelight on national television and so for me my ego death was completely redefining what my goals were And who I was as a person because So much of what i had built Was about me catering To belief systems That have been put into place For me and trying to jump through The hoops and standards set for Me by other people rather than actually Doing What?

00:58:20: And I didn't even know at the time that I was acting outside of my own interests, because I was just so desperate to please and be accepted by people in the community.

00:58:30: That iIwasjustdoingwhatIthoughtIneededtodoinordertoachievethat.

00:58:33: So unfortunately oneofthebyproductsisstartingtoseeTheHorseWorldForWhatItIsAndhonestlyLookAtTheScienceThatIsOutThereThatCallsToQuestionAlotOfTheBelief SystemsThatWeAreTought ToBeFactAndThatWePreachAsGospel.

00:58:47: it will involve completely re-evaluating your beliefs and these seasons of life where you'd so deeply bought into things, based on personality goals in the future around belief systems that later... proved to not be true.

00:59:04: And it's a very scary process, but I do think it's freeing one because even when you're actively in denial and don't necessarily realize that is the case comes with cost!

00:59:14: It will change how you feel about yourself internally or respond to your environment.

00:59:32: me because there was always this underlying discomfort and guilt with what I cause discomfort in them.

01:00:03: And it's scary, but then what it leads to is you build community with people who are most closely in alignment with you and it feels a lot better even if it was initially lonely because you attract the type of people that your supposed be around.

01:00:16: Absolutely so well put.

01:00:18: I always asked within our rapid fire questions we ask all of our podcast guests.

01:00:23: The last one has like say What Horses Are To You?

01:00:28: And I normally get answers like, you know they're magical or my best friend.

01:00:34: Or something like that which one hundred percent I fully agree with and...I remember i had this answer from the data driven equestrian and she said for me horses are a huge responsibility.

01:00:56: true, and it's so important to say that is to say like these animals they are under our care.

01:01:04: You know?

01:01:05: And they are a huge responsibility for us!

01:01:07: We do need be willing to acknowledge what OUR downfalls or what OUR faults are... What OUR blinders we might wear are So that WE can do the best that we can for these animals that DESERVE THE BEST.

01:01:25: It kind of in a way, you know very much reflected exactly what you'd said where there's so many things that we need to look upon ourselves and say am I doing this?

01:01:34: And the best interests with the horse or the best interest is me.

01:01:37: Yeah So yeah i'm just.

01:01:39: i'm still glad these said that for our listeners myself included because it's such an important reminder.

01:01:45: Thank You.

01:01:46: Oh absolutely

01:01:48: if Everybody listening was to read your book Is there, like one big hope that you have for everyone who reads your book?

01:02:01: That they close it and learn or walk away

01:02:04: with.

01:02:06: I hope that everyone who reads it walks away with the ability to question things more and not just take things at face value.

01:02:12: Just because a high profile person is the one that says, isn't?

01:02:15: And you have confidence in yourself too do further research and look deeper into things than ask difficult questions and maintain an open perspective and question things Because i think thats biggest thing.

01:02:27: The horse industry wouldnt've gotten where its today.

01:02:31: people were questioning things more openly and feeling free in the ability to do so.

01:02:37: There's a lot of fear involved in speaking out, And The More People That Question Things and Exemplify that Curiosity & Lack Of Desire To Just Conform With What They're Told To Do, The More Safety It Creates For Other People To Do The Same.

01:02:54: Three years ago, I asked you the rapid-fire questions that I mentioned earlier.

01:03:18: Harsh mechanics and that's something I think people need to sit with responsibility if they're making the choice to use harsh equipment.

01:03:32: Who has been most influential person in your questioning journey?

01:03:36: There have a lot of people, like i'd say my mom is probably the most because she was very supportive.

01:03:41: it worked hard for me to maintain access even when family was really struggling like a career that a lot of people discouraged me from because I was told repeatedly, you'll never be able to make a living off horses and it's stupid thing.

01:04:02: And she didn't really fit into the mindset which is always encouraging.

01:04:07: From scientific perspective Dr Paul McGreevy has been involved in horse welfare.

01:04:15: studies on horse behavior are having become more commonplace in the scientific community?

01:04:26: Awesome.

01:04:28: If you could give a question and one piece of advice, what would it be?

01:04:32: Most issues that we have with horses are not training.

01:04:35: Issues.

01:04:36: they largely stem from management or some internal feelings, so rather than fixating on the behavior that you're witnessing play detective and ask yourself what is driving this behavior?

01:04:47: And why is the horse feeling The need to behave it This way?

01:04:50: because suppressing the behavior doesn't fix the underlying reason That behaviour exists.

01:04:57: I feel like the same thing could be said about ourselves.

01:05:00: Why am i responding this way?

01:05:03: And then, The last one please complete the sentence.

01:05:06: for me horses are...

01:05:09: For Me Horses Are a mirror into Ourselves and what our society needs to shift away from.

01:05:18: because This idea of creating safety From brute force and control It's just not realistic, it doesn't promote safety to keep people or animals essentially in shackles and try to force our way into obedience.

01:05:34: And making them do what we want.

01:05:36: What creates safety is building community Building mutual understanding and possessing empathy and consideration because ultimately If our needs are all met and we feel seen, heard or understood there's a lot less of reason to escalate into more drastic behaviors.

01:05:56: And the same is true about horses or people.

01:05:58: I think what you see on a world scale has been abandoned in their need maintain what they feel the need to do to survive because of how our world is built and then that alters their behavior.

01:06:11: And largely, we just have needs met.

01:06:13: having community not operating with a mindset if don't keep up certain appearances everything's going to fall apart or be on your own.

01:06:27: We have the three F's and I believe that Dr.

01:06:30: Steve Peters said there are now five things, but i know they're three Fs of like the forage freedom and friends.

01:06:38: uh...for horses it is just having those basic needs met to be resourced.

01:06:45: The same thing is true with us To being able community in a safe living environment you know, financial resources to feel like we can feed ourselves and hose ourselves on all of those different things.

01:06:58: And yeah it's this idea that our world isn't really set up for us.

01:07:04: be as resourced is...as we should be horses included.

01:07:09: so Yeah.

01:07:10: We're taught to abandon our needs and I think we project that onto horses where a lot of people feel like it's an injustice if they afford their horse more understanding than what they get, really everyone deserves more understanding.

01:07:24: So good!

01:07:25: All right i want everybody know about your work.

01:07:32: no but you all the things.

01:07:33: so where can people connect with u and find out more?

01:07:36: we're gonna put it in a show notes.

01:07:38: perfect.

01:07:38: so my website milestone equestrian dot c.a has a lot of information about me.

01:07:43: as the book linked on there was a lot different places that you can order it but you can ordered from anywhere that sells books, wherever you prefer to purchase from, You can find it there.

01:07:54: And then you can also find me on Instagram at instagram.com.

01:07:59: slash sd eq u us.

01:08:01: I'm On Facebook as milestone equestrian and i'm Also in youtube with just my name shall be denis?

01:08:08: All of those are also linked on My website page if people want To look but Those Are my primary platforms.

01:08:13: Awesome we're gonna put everything In the show notes.

01:08:15: so If your listening Just simply scroll down you'll have to click on The links.

01:08:19: Shelby,

01:08:20: thank

01:08:20: you so much for joining us today.

01:08:40: You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial On wehorse.com where you can access over one hundred and seventy five courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics And disciplines.

01:09:02: until next time be kind to yourself your horses, and others.