#99 Becoming an Objective Observer of Your Horse with Shannon Beahen

00:00:01: In this episode, we're talking with Shannon Bayon also known online as Humming Horse a trauma-informed horse trainer Online educator academic and writer.

00:00:12: First it's our eyes watching then.

00:00:14: It's her body A little closer than its.

00:00:16: maybe are hand touching or even suggesting touch And they were watching their reaction.

00:00:23: Welcome to the equestrian connection podcast from We Horse.

00:00:27: my name is Danielle Kroll and I'm your host.

00:00:30: Shannon Bayon specializes in teaching her own consent-based approach to natural dressage and liberty, equine care and co-living as well the creation of species appropriate habitats that promote dynamic movement and autonomous equine lifestyles.

00:00:46: She is passionate about exploring and articulating the ethics of embodied horse-human relationships, And her hope is that through teaching a deeper awareness Of human animal and human environment relations Equestrian education ceases to be a privileged pastime That replicates outdated domination logics.

00:01:05: Instead may just provide some seeds To birth

00:01:09: new earth.

00:01:10: Shannon has been an equestrian Canada certified competition coach since the late nineties, studying topics related to human animal ethics language and philosophy.

00:01:20: Since twenty or two thousand eight excuse me a BA MA PhD candidate.

00:01:25: And she holds certifications in horsehuman trauma recovery and lives on Vancouver Island where She tends acreage with her multi species family.

00:01:34: I'm so excited for this conversation.

00:01:36: So let's dive Shannon, welcome to the WeHorse podcast.

00:01:41: As mentioned I've been following your stuff for a while and i'm really excited to have you here!

00:01:45: And I know our listeners are as well because they actually recommended you.

00:01:48: so... Welcome!

00:01:50: Thanks for having me and thanks to whoever recommended me.

00:01:53: it's uh my work can be a bit out there and um You don't always know how it's perceived or what parts of what i'm sharing Are um Really landing with people.

00:02:04: So i-i'm excited to get into this

00:02:07: Me too.

00:02:08: So to kick us off, let's go back to sort of like the meat and potatoes.

00:02:12: I'll say have your work.

00:02:15: What is it that you do?

00:02:17: And what do you teach?

00:02:18: Can we start there?

00:02:20: Yeah so i started out as a very traditional riding coach.

00:02:25: I came up through riding schools or whatever horse I could ride mostly in just cross-training English tradition foundation in dressage jumping, you know.

00:02:40: In North America we have Hunter Jumper and so I did all those things as well as eventing And um As i progressed as a student and then eventually as a coach Um, I came across the path of a really influential dressage coach.

00:02:59: So got a lot of training in that dimension, even though I didn't really compete that much there.

00:03:06: But i wrote A Lot Of The Young Horses and but also always love jumping.

00:03:12: so just full spectrum English education will fill In a few other.

00:03:18: you know life-life journey lifepath things That took me Other places And into other professional avenues?

00:03:30: slowly progressed to softer and softer methods, which I could share a bit more about that journey.

00:03:37: But as for what i do right now um...I think the best way to explain it is that starting as a regular coach ,i just kept zooming out to where can i have more influence on this dyadic you know?

00:03:57: This horse human pairing that I'm teaching, and how can I help it be softer?

00:04:06: So sometimes that involves taking into consideration what the human is experiencing as well as with horses' experience.

00:04:14: And eventually that became more like groundwork stuff... ...and then more behavioral things.

00:04:22: The more I zoomed out than it become environmental design or considerations.

00:04:29: And I'd say like the zoom out got to a point where it became a Zoom in again, which was a lot about the nervous system and what's going on between two bodies.

00:04:39: So what that looks like now?

00:04:40: Like evolving from a regular coach too...I don't even really call myself a coach or trainer anymore although for simplicity sake i do but It barely resembles what I used to do.

00:04:54: Sometimes, I'm doing observational work with a client and their herd where we're trying take in as much information possible about the whole herd and see if it's like a super organism is trying tell us because you switch that kind of lens You start to realize that what you think is a riding problem isn't necessarily writing problem when you think it's the training problem.

00:05:25: Isn't necessary a training problem with your fingers and interpersonal problems?

00:05:29: well often it is bad but even that interpersonal probably might have other dimensional influences you know could be, Systemic power, it could be environmental design.

00:05:44: It could all those things.

00:05:45: so um All that to say what I do these days is pretty slow Pretty quiet and sometimes it looks like regular training in regular coaching But that's a much smaller percentage than when he used to use to beat and also say barely ever.

00:06:02: Are you gonna see?

00:06:06: Bits or spurs are whips and some times no tack in my sessions.

00:06:12: And I'm not going to say never, but a lot of those are probably and never for me.

00:06:19: Yeah

00:06:22: what moved you in this direction?

00:06:23: Like was there is specific shift that happened?

00:06:26: um... That led you to this point.

00:06:29: or was it like waking up one day and thinking i don't think i can do this anymore.

00:06:35: yeah It's death.

00:06:36: by a thousand cuts I mean just super quickly, even when i was at my most mainstream.

00:06:46: My most kind of embedded in what we now call the dominance mode training but would say like the main stream training...I always knew that horses needed to be turned out any horse of mine as much as possible, often on a twenty-four hour field board.

00:07:05: So I always knew that horses needed to move and be turned out have as much freedom of...as possible when they're not being ridden.

00:07:11: um i loved two hackhorses you know.

00:07:14: so when I was riding When I was training in the dressage barn A lot of those uh you know quote unquote dressage queens really would hack out.

00:07:24: So I was always the one that's going to hack the horses in fields on the road, so i always understood that bodies needed freedom and bodies wanted to be happy in their skin.

00:07:34: That is just something I innately understood-I would jump the dressage horses if it were working at a jumping barn ,i would hack those horses out into a field...so.

00:07:47: But I worked in a lot of barns, you know as i tried to plot my career path because I wanted it be professional rider and didn't have money.

00:07:56: So plotting the career path was just like the grind working into many burns possible.

00:08:03: getting exposed to much coaching is possible.

00:08:05: trying to get exposed at highest level that I could access too took me over England where trained with very high-level inventors Um, but there was just like.

00:08:21: I don't think so much had a strong super-strong ethic for the animal yet.

00:08:26: I mean i did in that freedom sense That I was talking about that.

00:08:30: I understood their bodies needed to be moving and they should Be happy But I didn't understand all The power dynamics that were going on?

00:08:39: I Didn't have language To put to that!

00:08:44: looked around at this career path that I was plotting and that i Was achieving Everyone seemed kind of miserable Like it.

00:08:53: It's just, I'd look around the horses in a lot Of those facilities where I think misery is.

00:09:00: That sounds like an extreme word But I don't know what else to call it when you would walk by their stalls And they're pinning ears and making angry faces.

00:09:07: They are lunging At You.

00:09:09: This Is Not Normal Yet It WAS normal in numerous facilities that I was at.

00:09:17: And a lot of the people were kind of that way too, um...I would say that I witnessed just you know i saw some overt abuse for sure but I wouldn't even say that my big beef with the overt abuse.

00:09:31: funnily enough to me what was grinding on me was casual dehumanization Of depending if your are a Big Money client or not.

00:09:42: you are almost invisible.

00:09:45: and I always had kind of a strong sense of justice about like, i am a person.

00:09:50: You were a person?

00:09:51: You deserve to be looked at in the eye and said hello too!

00:09:54: You know...you're being.

00:09:56: that should be

00:09:56: acknowledged.".

00:09:57: And I was seeing.

00:09:59: there wasn't a lot of that um-and worse.

00:10:02: yet yeah..I mean there was it....there was just some crazy crazy stuff I would witness as well.

00:10:09: so Death by a thousand cuts, I was just starting to not have fun anymore.

00:10:14: It's really not that funny.

00:10:15: and i loved horses!

00:10:18: And i loved riding.

00:10:20: um.

00:10:21: so fortunately through a few twists and turns it was given advice like if you want be a rider go professionalize or get another career make money in your career and fund your riding that way.

00:10:38: So I did, I left the horse world-I never left it fully!

00:10:42: I was always a coach like since... Since the late nineties when i got my coaching designation um.. I have been a coach pretty much nonstop even when I was doing other things.

00:10:54: I would at least teach once or twice a week here in there.

00:10:58: Um, so I became a-I went to school for advertising way back in the day and it was really fun because it was a creative profession.

00:11:08: You know?

00:11:08: Like dyed my hair purple like got piercings... And i lived in the world of I would say The Arts!

00:11:15: ...and really enjoyed the contrast to what I would describe as that kind of misery that I was seeing in the horse world, and it had an amazing horse at the time.

00:11:24: but i just kept out a low-key barn.

00:11:26: And I had fun with that horse.

00:11:27: my plan was still to train him up as high as I could too...to as high level as I would.

00:11:34: um..but I was professionalizing .And I got to feel other cultures beyond just the horseworld!I know you mentioned earlier.

00:11:42: like you know, a large part of the audience for this podcast might be amateur riders and horse owners.

00:11:51: So maybe people listening don't know how ugly it can get in some of those worlds although I suspect... I have a feeling

00:12:00: that my neck is getting sore from nodding so

00:12:02: much!

00:12:03: Oh my god…I

00:12:04: think our

00:12:05: audiences

00:12:06: very much the same way like the visualizations clearly of walking along the aisleways of barns and having angry horses from your mere existence to have that dismissiveness in

00:12:24: like

00:12:24: human areas, all those different things.

00:12:27: It's unfortunately a very universal experience where it seems like in The Equestrian World.

00:12:33: so yeah-

00:12:33: Yeah!

00:12:34: And I'm very lucky there was part you know, I was partly enculturated into it.

00:12:42: Like i partly went along with because this is what happens when we are in plugged-in to certain environments We takes us a while to really realize maybe that It's not the healthy environment but there was always part of me That This Was like this Is Not okay.

00:12:59: But I think um You Know What talking about professionalizing in other fields and fields that had more fun, and more play.

00:13:07: And what I would call humanity.

00:13:10: to them the contrast was so evident they were like oh my okay it wasn't me!

00:13:19: That culture is really... I didn't even use words like toxic back then, but i just knew...I didn't like that and did this.

00:13:27: And when we talk about the purple hair or piercings it's as if you had freedom to break out of something.

00:13:36: So through a number of processes in breaking-out was the horse world, which you know.

00:13:46: The nature of owning horses and participating horses with horse culture is it's expensive they're large animals and can take a lifetime to become a master if not multiple lifetimes And so it isn't all consuming past time.

00:14:05: So by that very nature It kind of breeds certain obsessions And people become kind of one-dimensionally, they become one dimensional people.

00:14:21: That doesn't make for good empathy and that doesn't makes for good cross referencing with what else exists in the world.

00:14:33: and normalizing certain ways of being.

00:14:37: So again, that's just what I saw a lot of professionally when into the creative world.

00:14:44: That got boring for me after awhile And i like much later in life became an academic because i was a writer When i was In The Advertising World playing with words, I love playing with ideas.

00:14:58: I loved the freedom i was given in the advertising world to be very creative um but at a certain point writing headlines to sell things wasn't quite doing it for me and so I needed something deeper and so...I went to school uh and like I say later in life became an academic and loved it so much!

00:15:19: I went all the way up.

00:15:24: That's also where I was introduced to concepts of social justice, and then i had a name.

00:15:34: that create and sustain certain power dynamics.

00:15:49: And in particular, you know when you do kind of a social justice education You'll learn about things like class inequity race inequity gender inequity But even swimming in that for a while, something still felt unsatisfying.

00:16:06: And it wasn't until I got to study about environmental inequity and our relationship with animals and the history of what it means to be human in modern world-in Western World... ...and how comes at the sacrifice of animals?

00:16:25: This is very old history both materially and symbolically how even repressing our own animal cells, Our own bodily selves is part of what it means to be a modern human.

00:16:40: And if we're too rectify some of those inequities It's gonna come from re inhabiting our bodies Re-inhabiting nature for lack of a better term I mean that becomes such kind of reified term in modern times and checking out relationship with animals.

00:17:00: And so this journey into like being a creative and then becoming an academic came full circle where I was like, oh now I can go back to the horse thing in the academic realm.

00:17:15: Pick up some of the pieces that got fragmented way back when even though I'm still kind of in the horse world but not as much as I used to be and start to integrate it all.

00:17:28: You know, there is other key things.

00:17:30: While I was doing the horse thing back in the early-early two thousands...I had a boyfriend that was into clicker training.

00:17:36: he trained dogs.

00:17:39: and so i learned about clicker trading way back then even before i had done this big transition.

00:17:45: So it's already fun and cool with my horses.

00:17:49: I learned about...I got exposed to Canada's horse whisper.

00:17:53: This is way back, went around two thousand Chris Irwin and this was all like very new stuff at the time.

00:18:01: um i just happened to stumble into one of his clinics and was like oh this is very different than what I teach in my lessons.

00:18:11: so already started incorporating some of that Liberty work way back in those days.

00:18:15: But it took a few other steps, going deeper into my own spirituality yoga deep meditation.

00:18:25: It took getting very sick My body just basically breaking down on me and leaving my academic life.

00:18:36: I'd say that would be the big hinge point That brings me up to.

00:18:42: now.

00:18:43: So there's a whole bunch of threads.

00:18:44: There it had to happen on the like cultural level.

00:18:48: It had to happened on the intellectual level, it had two happen Really?

00:18:54: The big one was when my body broke down and Then it started giving me real insights about what's going on inside a body that is responding to certain pressures of a culture.

00:19:10: And What to do then, you know?

00:19:11: Like Gabramante has this book when the body says no.

00:19:15: And whether he read that book or not it doesn't really matter because the title is already so evocative.

00:19:20: like It's one thing to not be able to resist within as a being with agency Within a certain culture or subculture.

00:19:33: Its another thing When The Body Says Look I don't care Whether You Are Gonna Consciously Resist Like i'm gonna break down or I'm just not going to be able to do the things that you've been making me do.

00:19:46: And so, that was a big one for me and feel layers of vulnerability in my own body with some of the greatest lessons that helped rebuild my relationship with horses really refined, nuanced ways no course could have ever taught.

00:20:12: Like all of that like the complexity of all of them.

00:20:15: You know, a lot of different things and then direction That we can kind of go with all of because there's so much in their.

00:20:23: like.

00:20:24: you said about the power dynamics About the one-dimensional thinking and like tunnel vision Um, you know when you're only exposed to like one side of things or something like that.

00:20:34: And I think a lot about The equestrian industry like what we had said earlier Walking down the barn island seeing the angry horses and assuming that's right, you know or Assuming.

00:20:47: That's just

00:20:47: the way it is And there's nothing wrong with that.

00:20:50: are you know

00:20:50: anything like

00:20:51: that?

00:20:51: I know that that's very much Something that I witnessed growing up in the horse industries.

00:20:56: You know walking down that barn Island thinking do you see no stick to that opposite side of the wall to avoid that horse?

00:21:03: Yes

00:21:05: The gaslighting of those particular horses too yeah He's just crazy or even teasing

00:21:11: them.

00:21:12: Yeah,

00:21:13: yeah and

00:21:15: I think to my boarding experience.

00:21:19: so one of the things that i've been doing with this podcast I had mentioned you before we started recording about how as myself an amateur horse owner I love bringing more awareness to other horse owners.

00:21:32: The more that I learn, the more I want to share or they're more than I don't know them where I wanna learn and you know it's like help everybody else learned when we no better redo better.

00:21:41: And one of the things that i'm realizing with having my horses home an I've had a home now since twenty-twenty two in on learning every single day and tweaking mistakes that are making all those different things and looking at that one-dimensional thinking, I had when I boarded because i didn't know any better.

00:22:02: It wasn't exposed to anything else in my horse's life other than the two hours.

00:22:06: I was there a day you know and so...I think too When I board it.

00:22:14: And..i've

00:22:15: always been fortunate enough To board at facilities That have indoor arenas.

00:22:19: So here In Canada If we don't Have an indoor arena Generally We're not really Doing much during Winter Depending on The Year And so the indoor arena always allowed me to ride year-round.

00:22:34: No matter what the weather, no matter you know... What was going on?

00:22:38: You were able to still tack up and get on

00:22:42: and ride!

00:22:44: Now with my horses at home I'm seeing so much more that goes in their lives throughout this seasons through out of the environment.

00:22:56: that would make me second guess, I don't think they're feeling up to doing anything today.

00:23:02: And so i wanted to bring into our conversation like you said one dimensional thinking where we are not exposed and

00:23:10: how

00:23:11: allowing ourselves a little bit more of an empathy for the horse's experience in their environment then allows us to tweak it rather than escalating pressure because Just get on with it.

00:23:27: We might think, oh you know what?

00:23:29: It was really windy last night and they live outside I bet there exhausted from lack of sleep.

00:23:35: Yeah

00:23:36: You know whatever it may be i'd love to kind of speak To.

00:23:39: that is like the

00:23:41: my favorite thing.

00:23:41: yeah great.

00:23:42: So let's go here.

00:23:44: And this Is What Like When we Opened and I have a hard time explaining what I do these days.

00:23:51: This best for if people are interested Maybe like tune into my Instagram or because it's something you just kind of have to watch.

00:23:59: and when I say that what i do doesn't look Like normal coaching anymore.

00:24:03: And in fact, if you were To watch me teach sometimes It doesn't Look like much Of anything is happening?

00:24:09: So it's like well What Is Happening If You're not?

00:24:12: Doesn't Look Like Something's Happening?

00:24:13: What is Happening?

00:24:15: And I was like the main thing I'm doing and That I'm trying to help horse owners to Do.

00:24:19: I'll also Say like most of The people I work with now are people with their own horses, and I'm helping them to have better relationships with their horses.

00:24:27: So i'm usually working one-on-one.

00:24:30: What I am helping them do is observe And spend a lot of time observing Helping them be better seers and watchers and discernors Of information.

00:24:41: To not take an idea about how things should because you were taught this at your board of facility, or you're taught this by one and only coach.

00:24:50: Or you read this book?

00:24:51: You follow the person

00:24:52: online?".

00:24:52: And they say that you should do it like

00:24:54: this.".

00:24:55: Let me just say right now there's a zillion different ways to do it!

00:24:58: In fact we live in golden age now...of different ways in terms of horsemanship.

00:25:04: In my day there weren't, they're like English or there was Western.

00:25:07: that's how it went!

00:25:09: There might be slight variations.

00:25:11: so what you are talking about having your horses home and already yourself is starting to notice who they are as fully dimensional beings.

00:25:23: They're not just this thing that sits in a stall waiting for you to come there after school or after work, and then you turn the being on like it's a toy on a shelf And now your gonna take off of the shelf.

00:25:35: Now it animates life.

00:25:37: I mean these is some implicit suggestions.

00:25:40: No one would ever say that.

00:25:41: But These are some of the implicit suggestions Of boarding horse In a facility and keeping it into box till u show up And it's got your name on the stall, and its' got their name on this stall.

00:25:52: It is YOUR object!

00:25:54: When you bring them home as you're describing... I'm not sure what your setup is but i think a lot of us that have them at home probably has windows in our house where we can look out the window to the horses.

00:26:07: Totally yeah same doing dishes easier because where the sink is oriented towards the horses You start to see, oh man.

00:26:16: These are like beings with I mean if you didn't already know right these are beings With their own complete lives even if they don't have super rich environments.

00:26:28: They have Twenty four hours in the day In which?

00:26:32: If you let them out of the box they Are going to be experiencing life and you start to See.

00:26:38: there's little fluctuations through The Day.

00:26:41: so um

00:26:43: i want i wanna add To that as well is Like.

00:26:45: I fully recognize that the majority of equestrians board their horses.

00:26:50: The majority, they do not have their horses at home.

00:26:52: and so my goal with this is to say oh you should bring your horse home then get to know them better.

00:26:58: it's more saying that we have as them being, you know these sentient beings.

00:27:06: it's to then apply that lens too when you go the barn.

00:27:10: Yes!

00:27:11: When your boarding facility and so I think its within looking at like what are some of different day-to-day things a horse could be going through?

00:27:23: And i know thats really layered but some those thing maybe average person listening I can apply that to my horse or iIcan keep that in mind.

00:27:35: Yes, totally!

00:27:37: So what you're speaking of there where it ties up with how I do my work these days is... It's what I'm calling observational horsemanship.

00:27:46: That's not the name of my entire method but its a portion Of one's approach To horses and really trying to encourage Horse owners to have.

00:27:56: Now if only see your horses for certain portions I understand.

00:28:01: Like, like...I live with my horses but it doesn't mean that i'm out there all day long with them.

00:28:06: But the invitation here is to spend a little more time watching and also- I mean the word rhythm Is coming to me here The more you can understand about your horse's daily rhythm which will of course change A bit day today in season two seasons year by year.

00:28:28: But even if you know, let's say it someone with a horse at a boarding facility.

00:28:32: If you can get to understand better where they typically add in their rhythm of their day when you happen to arrive?

00:28:40: It is often up the same time and if its not then still got picture.

00:28:44: what's general rhythm?

00:28:46: I think most hornet course owners do kinda now that because there are feed schedules.

00:28:53: So, you know even with my own horses I'm pretty consistent.

00:29:01: My horses are not on twenty four hours hay Even though that is the common practice With more natural lifestyles which i do typically encourage.

00:29:08: But we have certain health considerations That they can't do that.

00:29:12: um so that part Is similar to boarding facilities.

00:29:16: I'm Not going to go and try And ask them To be ridden just after They've gotten hay.

00:29:22: people forget this.

00:29:24: Or they might say, well I know that but this is just the only time i can get to the barn and so I have to do it then!

00:29:30: And its like okay...I get that..that's fine....but just know that and know that thats already going.

00:29:37: add some tension likely, or it's going to be a consideration of where they are in the rhythm of their day that you're gonna want to consider.

00:29:45: And what's the solution for?

00:29:47: That well It might as simple is just give them a little bit of loose hay.

00:29:50: As as grooming or tacking up or whatever it is You do.

00:29:54: but The big invitation is watching more and understanding rhythms.

00:30:01: That would also mean that if you are someone who can only show up at the barn for your hour or two hours, maybe take a few sessions to just observe.

00:30:11: Like don't get right into it!

00:30:15: And I'm pretty good observer but more and more clients become open to me taking them through this practice of let's watch... Let's let the horses have more of a voice by us getting quieter and quieter, and more still.

00:30:35: And more just in the field... The field of observation itself creates certain circumstances.

00:30:43: it does not cease to amaze me what people holding witnessing power brings about!

00:30:54: you know, nature quote unquote.

00:30:56: Nature animals in general seem to very much be receptive to understanding their being watch prey animal certainly and of course there's different kinds of gazes.

00:31:08: we can have a predatory gaze when we're watching them.

00:31:10: We want to be aware that something.

00:31:13: as I go into observational horsemanship with certain clients, i do start to notice oh you're hyper-focusing.

00:31:19: You're getting a bit of predatory gaze and we want to work on what even that is.

00:31:24: but leaving that aside it's just more watching... And what might be some of the things we watch for?

00:31:34: Well which state are they in when we arrive?

00:31:37: You know, like.

00:31:37: are they in a field?

00:31:38: Are They In A Box.

00:31:40: Are they with friends or the eating?

00:31:43: Or they just standing there?

00:31:44: Are they alert?

00:31:46: Are The Resting in?

00:31:48: let's say five or ten minutes span.

00:31:50: how many different states do they go through?

00:31:53: Like if you watch really closely and I watched Really Closely like um...you Know some people will Say to me because One of my specialty areas has been shut down.

00:32:04: horses, you know working with horses that don't want to move a lot.

00:32:08: Of people see fancy videos online Trainers doing really remarkable things and what they don't realize is all the time those are more like highly aroused Horses And those?

00:32:19: Those kind of interactions always lead two more spectacular visuals right?

00:32:25: not as many People That Are uploading videos of horses that Like Don't Want To Move.

00:32:30: So I get a lot of clients that come to me saying, like my horse doesn't want to move.

00:32:34: They don't move and so we go into observational horsemanship mode And it's like is that true?

00:32:40: That they don't wanna move Like or isn't?

00:32:43: only under certain circumstances.

00:32:44: They Don't Want To Move.

00:32:46: and let's just watch for a moment before We even bring ourselves Into the equation.

00:32:51: do you see movement?

00:32:52: No, they're not moving.

00:32:54: well their ear Just moved Their head Just Moved their neck just moved, oh and there's a footstep.

00:33:01: Oh!

00:33:01: There is the tail swish.

00:33:03: yeah but that not moving.

00:33:04: well let us start here.

00:33:07: they are moving right?

00:33:09: And if we can get little bit of movement lets see where it goes from there.

00:33:13: so pause for moment to make sure some this landing its kind back to idea like zooming in and zoom out.

00:33:24: I am very in love with both, you know.

00:33:29: The zoom out is let's hang on the edge of-of the field and just watch.

00:33:33: The Zoom In is how many little details can we notice about... How my horse IS in its body separate from me?

00:33:43: And I always kind say it's like double Dutch.

00:33:45: Have ever done a Double Dutch or seen it?

00:33:48: Like if you do double Dutch skipping i'm talking about um childrens game typically.

00:33:53: Um You'll watch that Before someone goes into the double dutch, they kind of watch and then their body starts to catch a rhythm.

00:34:03: And you see them?

00:34:03: Yeah well... Then start make moves like might jump in but there's still.

00:34:08: is this time or is it that time?

00:34:10: and then they jump in.

00:34:11: sometimes its fail when hit the skip got to come out all over.

00:34:16: other times are in the rhythm.

00:34:18: I'm trying teach people do more with horses.

00:34:22: watch the rhythms for a while.

00:34:24: Watch the rhythm, then toy with the idea of entering the rythms.

00:34:29: but even as you toyed with an idea to enter into it there's kind of flexibility and bounciness that is ready either or I'm not committed.

00:34:41: this has to happen.

00:34:43: I'm in a more playful embodied stance of, This might happen?

00:34:47: This might happened!

00:34:48: This might have

00:34:48: happened?!

00:34:49: This might've happened!

00:34:50: I might ask.

00:34:50: you might

00:34:51: ask.".

00:34:52: So it's kind the double Dutch approach to things.

00:34:55: Does that make sense or do you want me drop into some specifics?

00:34:58: I love that analogy so much.

00:34:59: i am really visual learner and adding that analogy is very helpful As long as our audience understands double dutch.

00:35:08: and if you don't like YouTube video a devil I could go find out what double Dutch is.

00:35:13: And

00:35:13: then it'll make

00:35:14: total sense.

00:35:15: Yeah, one of the things that i'm also thinking um You know when we have like a discussion Like this Is This idea That as humans It's very Um.

00:35:27: It's Very much in Our nature to Also Create A Story Around Things.

00:35:33: Uh-huh What is your advice on finding that balance between observing with like, you know just complete observation versus observing and putting an assumption on it or creating a story around.

00:35:52: Yeah this is another big part of my work.

00:35:55: so... You're right we are in the same place because you write that observing can almost always become storytelling and meaning-making.

00:36:08: And I think even just starting by knowing that we're trying to achieve something prior to meaning making, even though we're not going be perfect at it because we are meaning-making creatures.

00:36:21: but just knowing...I'm always wanting the step before the steps so we can kind of deconstruct things which don't want them happening.

00:36:35: things we don't want to be happening happen.

00:36:37: And so just knowing, oh that's a place!

00:36:40: That is the step prior where you can try and locate it?

00:36:43: We're observing... okay I'm not exactly sure what this lady was talking about but something about observing or standing back and seeing their rhythms are ...and then just know if they were already starting to tell us story.

00:36:57: Can we catch ourselves there?

00:36:58: It's like well What do we have If we don' t have a story?

00:37:02: I think it's helpful to have words like sensation.

00:37:09: It helps with movement words, there is a whole collection of phenomena that happens in the world.

00:37:18: let us say when we are watching nature... There're birds i watch and can see outside my window right now but What their name is?

00:37:29: I don't know what they're Latin.

00:37:30: Name Is i don't Know, what Their Common Name Is?

00:37:32: I Don't Know if They're Native to this Area.

00:37:35: Those Would all be Kind of Story Features But I can Still.

00:37:39: I Can still Glean Something About Them and go oh those are the cute Ones.

00:37:43: Those Are The ones you know.

00:37:44: And That How do I know They're Cute?

00:37:46: Well it Just It Brings A smile To my face.

00:37:48: They Give Me a Certain kind Of Feeling.

00:37:50: um They Move Really Fast.

00:37:53: They Only Come in at This Time of Year.

00:37:56: Oh, they have these kinds of colors Okay.

00:37:58: Well what else do we notice when those birds come in?

00:38:01: oh Those birds only come in when there's buds These kinds of bugs on the tree.

00:38:06: ah okay so we're just collecting data points.

00:38:11: some might be visual Some might be sensations We feel and our body some might Be sensations were kind of picking up on but we're maybe not sure if their in our body or coming from elsewhere.

00:38:24: I mean, just at the sensation level there's so many... So much of our vocabulary.

00:38:30: we can start to develop more.

00:38:32: This is one practical way to come back into the body because even that can be this very abstract concept like get back in your body.

00:38:40: you're not embodied enough and it's like well one way is to just notice are you breathing?

00:38:47: Oh no i'm holding my breath okay!

00:38:49: Is that horse breathing?

00:38:51: how would I know if they're breathing?

00:38:52: Well they're alive.

00:38:53: How would I know what the quality of their breath is?

00:38:56: Oh, like...I'm looking at their diaphragm and i can barely see any movement.

00:39:02: Ah okay!

00:39:03: Is that normal for

00:39:03: them?".

00:39:04: I'm not sure.

00:39:04: if never noticed before great start noticing that right.

00:39:08: so things like sensations.

00:39:10: um you know it's fun to get technical knowledge It's really fun to learn about anatomy ,it's fun.

00:39:23: But there are ways we can get to know their bodies and our bodies that don't have to require that kind of vocabulary.

00:39:30: I like play with concepts, do i feel tense or relaxed?

00:39:39: Do i feel open or closed?

00:39:46: hyper-vigilant, I mean that's already a big word.

00:39:47: Do I feel like i'm able to take time?

00:39:49: To observe?

00:39:50: or do I feel Like things are happening so fast That there's no time to observe even that our thing is happening quickly?

00:39:57: Are Things Happening Slowly?

00:39:59: do I Feel Warm?

00:40:00: Do I Feel Cold?

00:40:01: Are They Up Or Are they Down?

00:40:03: Are They Loose Or Are They Stiff?

00:40:08: These Are all Data Points We Can Be Collecting And it's like, OK.

00:40:17: But when do we get to the meaning making?

00:40:19: When is it okay to start making meaning?

00:40:21: I would just say collect for a while and start to notice patterns.

00:40:27: are they always like this or they never liked us?

00:40:30: Are They Always Like This Lately?

00:40:32: but They Didn't Used To Be Like This Sometimes.

00:40:37: pattern observing so noticing phenomena as i've just mentioned then collecting the phenomenon into patterns.

00:40:46: The patterns start to speak their own story.

00:40:51: That would be different than us going, so Shannon I'll take your invitation to just notice some of these qualities.

00:41:00: that horse looks stiff?

00:41:02: That horse looks loose.

00:41:03: oh gosh!

00:41:05: Are they lame?

00:41:06: is that a lameness?

00:41:07: Oh my god Is.

00:41:08: what kind of lameness?

00:41:09: hey can you come over here and look at my horse?

00:41:10: What kinda lameness this should i be calling the vet?

00:41:14: no one gonna look it up slow down.

00:41:17: We don't even need to go there yet.

00:41:20: And it's really neat because you can start to become your own, I'm not saying exclude vets or exclude other professionals from the equation but we can start be better observers and even start begin informal diagnoses on our own by collecting as much information about just what is going material world.

00:41:46: Does that make sense?

00:41:47: Do you want me to say more about meaning-making and

00:41:49: storying?".

00:41:50: It makes so much sense, I'm also looking at it from the perspective of like you had said like diagnosis or including our equine professionals...I am someone too who pays a lot attention Data and I'll say to my osteopath.

00:42:12: Oh, my mare's chewing slightly differently You know.

00:42:16: or i'll say two my farrier He's standing with his foot kind of you know like he'll unnoticed him resting His leg

00:42:25: on

00:42:25: an elevated surface?

00:42:27: Yeah Or like something like that Like I'm able to take all those different things And at the end of day That is so important to my horse's actual care.

00:42:38: To their physical bodies, if we really bring it down and I bring back a goal or something like that me being this observational on these sorts of things improve our training or our riding, for my horse to enjoy working with me more because they're feeling better in their bodies.

00:43:05: You know all of those different things where it's like.

00:43:09: these observation skills that you mentioned are such important data And it's important for ourselves as well, like you had mentioned the way that we even look at our horses.

00:43:24: That is so important!

00:43:26: The way that our body language and breath are.

00:43:31: It makes us more self-aware of how humans perceive us.

00:43:38: I'm obsessed with this sort of stuff.

00:43:41: Yeah, and even as i'm hearing you relay some of that back... ...I'm imagining the listeners might be thinking okay but now what?

00:43:47: What do I do without

00:43:48: information?".

00:43:49: And I'm hoping we have time to get into some detail.

00:43:57: But um.. I would just say like- I think you used the word earlier How Do We Not Escalate Pressure?

00:44:04: That is something I'd love to get in.

00:44:07: I already want to kind of highlight how our own humanness is, we're meaning-making machines and were quite fast.

00:44:19: We are quite fast to leave phenomena if ever even in it.

00:44:23: some people live entirely into their heads increasingly being trained more or more in virtual realms.

00:44:31: so using this word escalation.

00:44:35: And we can talk about pressure escalation and the techniques, like the horsemanship in coaching and training techniques around avoiding pressure escalations.

00:44:44: But I just want to say that this concept of escalation in general is something we wanna catch even at these layers.

00:44:51: how fast do we move to be in phenomena?

00:44:55: Just in it.

00:44:57: imagine being if you were lucky enough to sit on a field with wild horses Would you spend that time just micro-analyzing, I mean a lot.

00:45:06: A lot of horse people would micro-analysing their bodies thinking oh god!

00:45:09: That looks lame and swollen.

00:45:11: how could the back ever carry your rider?

00:45:13: Oh my God...that part in the neck.

00:45:16: hopefully they wouldn't see these things on wild horses or would have the ability to be in

00:45:22: it?

00:45:23: Such good point yeah.

00:45:24: To

00:45:25: notice the smells, to notice sounds vibrations of being around wildness, to not see them as objects that need to be modified or analyzed.

00:45:39: Or...to just be in it and the leap into meeting-making or even calling in a professional is a leap!

00:45:50: It's fast leap—it's an escalation.

00:45:53: It's speed…a movement which takes us out Into a whole other dimension that I have to say is very far removed.

00:46:03: You know, we're people are using more words about like Being anti-anthropocentric being less human centred and more animal centered.

00:46:12: We use these words.

00:46:13: i'm seeing colleagues That i'm very aligned with Use these words But I still see so much leaping into the human dimension of being in The mind being in the analysis diagnosis, being in the professional expertise and not just being with.

00:46:36: Okay?

00:46:38: This brings me I have a question written down here And yeah i'd love to ask you this is The circumstances where the word quote care crosses align into control in horsemanship or we look at what we're seeing as observation

00:47:00: and

00:47:01: putting actually a spin as fixing

00:47:04: on things.

00:47:07: This is really the core, I know we are leaping past like what could be specifics of my work like pressures or this kind stuff but it's bigger concept.

00:47:18: you see animal to be fixed care in control.

00:47:27: This is such a fine line.

00:47:28: and again, you know where I situate myself in kind of the many offerings of horsemanship offerings that are out there.

00:47:37: It's like this very crude kind of explanation.

00:47:40: i'm no longer in the dominance realms i'm not longer in performance rounds.

00:47:44: over here something softer And Over Here In The Something Softer this undefined softness just general impulse to be nicer to horses I'm seeing a lot of the same kind of things happen that I see happened in what we are also calling The Dominance Realm, but they're cloaked in different clothing.

00:48:05: It's more in the clothing of care and compassion.

00:48:10: And yet i still ask where is the horse as its own being?

00:48:15: In this?

00:48:17: so I think words or concepts like Just remembering the process of domestication that has happened, and that is already... I mean there's debates about how domestication took place.

00:48:31: Did we just do that to the animal or did this something co-evolved?

00:48:36: And my understanding of increasingly the research were getting back on this was it wasn't entirely.

00:48:42: humans went and said your hours now, we're going to make you part of our domesticated world.

00:48:49: That there were some kind of acts of agency on the part whether it was a dog or horse or cat where they did an act of choice.

00:48:58: in that although I'd be careful even take findings and say this is equal because most certainly agree that this is not equal.

00:49:10: Because what would equal mean?

00:49:11: Well, it's understanding things like agency.

00:49:14: What does that even mean if that's not part of kind your vocabulary as a horse person That trying to be conscientious towards the horses needs I'd say that word or something like it needs to be in there.

00:49:28: And this gets very philosophical, very quickly because it's like well what do we mean by agency?

00:49:32: We're talking about free will... What does it mean to have freewill when you are already in a captive environment and heavily domesticated environment?

00:49:43: We've been breeding certain breeds for certain functions layered dimensions of control already baked into the organism before it even lands on the ground from its mother's body.

00:50:03: Does that make sense?

00:50:04: I know this is out there, but this is all part of the consideration.

00:50:09: so This idea of care i think Is already coming.

00:50:13: It needs to be considered within The context Of understanding domestication and what captivity does to bodies.

00:50:22: And that if we want to have more balanced, equal relationships or we wanna return some of the horse back to the horse it needs to come from examining when our care is consistently making this movement of.

00:50:41: I know better than you?

00:50:43: We do this to our own bodies.

00:50:45: I mean were told constantly like There's some outside force knows more about your body than you do.

00:50:52: And I get it, this isn't an all or nothing like.

00:50:55: i'm not saying Western medicine.

00:50:56: we don't participate... It's amazing that we have western medicine and it is amazing That We Have The Ability To Care For Our Horses the Way We Do.

00:51:05: but can we allow our own human bodies to have just a little more say?

00:51:10: Or develop A Relationship With The Body Where We Listen to it a bit more.

00:51:15: Oh, I get this craving at this time of day.

00:51:18: What does that mean?

00:51:19: Um oh whenever i eat This thing Kind of feel like garbage even though i kind of crave It.

00:51:25: what's that all about?

00:51:27: um so listening To our bodies listening to the horse A little bit More and knowing That its going to be messy Like there is no If we can't have some Tolerance to Get it a Little Bit Wrong I'd say we're not letting this thing called agency grow.

00:51:48: If there's a little bit of dimensions of control come about to increase probability and decrease unknown variables, that's control is going to increase the possibility.

00:52:10: the thing I think i want to happen is gonna happen.

00:52:14: If we're not existing with our animals in a way where things are a little hairy, a little less predictable...I don't mean confusing because that's its own kind of abuse if the horse is just constantly in confusion but just checking ourselves on the care thing a little bit.

00:52:34: I think maybe having a concrete example might help, like is there specific type of care that you're thinking about when you ask this question?

00:52:41: About how care and control...

00:52:46: First of all i love that your balancing it with this.

00:52:50: You know we are going from that sort observational data perspective With this.

00:52:57: So thank for creating the balance in here When I think of it, about like the control within that care.

00:53:09: I'll

00:53:11: use...I

00:53:12: speak for myself here with my own example and I'm not going to broadly blanket anything here.

00:53:19: so i have a mare.

00:53:26: she has a lot of pathologies in her

00:53:27: body

00:53:29: a lot of things that, you know have been going on.

00:53:32: And she requires a lot osteopathic care to maintain her quality life and

00:53:41: there's a lot

00:53:42: times I'll see her doing something.

00:53:48: maybe all think oh...I wouldn't do it this way or

00:53:53: like.. I

00:53:54: don't know if thats in your best interest.

00:53:59: It's,

00:54:01: she knows her body and she knows what is going to feel best in that moment or whatever it may be.

00:54:08: And so thats where we kind of have a little bit like the...

00:54:13: Yeah!

00:54:13: So this great because yes I've been told the body should be a certain way The bodies not being the ways are led either through my own beliefs or outside belief.

00:54:28: But yet here it is being this thing.

00:54:30: I want to be a good horse person that doesn't just like, you know totally control my horses life.

00:54:37: but i also don't wanna be negligent.

00:54:39: This line between agency and negligence It's the line I ride every day And I dont ever arrive at a place that just feel solid.

00:54:53: And if I do, it's probably because i've fallen into a more concrete belief system.

00:54:57: This is what it is to be wild To ride these lines and they're uncomfortable lines.

00:55:04: So I work with bodies like this all the time.

00:55:07: Bodies that are not...I mean What body does conform?

00:55:11: entirely to these various standards.

00:55:14: We can open up Instagram and we can immediately, as horse people in our feed see these types of posts green lines and red lines pointing to certain body parts.

00:55:23: this is how the neck should be.

00:55:24: This Is How The Back Should Be.

00:55:26: well intentioned Well Intentioned But I mean this is me even coming from being sick you know And a lot Of My Insights Coming From Being Sick!

00:55:36: This Can Be A Very Ablest Way of looking at bodies and these are new forms of control, right?

00:55:43: Of we may not control bodies the way we used to or humans.

00:55:47: The way we use to our animals the way We're always as human seem to find new ways To control them in their very seductive ways because they seemed Very like oh but it's for a good reason.

00:56:00: So the observational horsemanship would come into this Like Oh my mare is doing This thing that I wouldn't do It That Way.

00:56:06: isn't that interesting?

00:56:07: isn't that interesting, but she does it.

00:56:09: That way and I would just spend a lot of time watching is it always like that?

00:56:15: Is sometimes like that only in certain circumstances.

00:56:19: what was before she did that?

00:56:21: you know i don' t

00:56:30: issue with her one of our SI joints and it causes her pelvis to sometimes be a little twisty, which is where the osteopathic care comes in.

00:56:38: And so sometime you'll see here just kind I'm noticing there's a trend where it starting to come up towards her poll.

00:56:51: If she doesn't have regular care, so she'll start the tilt her head differently and change the way she choose things like that.

00:56:59: So all of those sort observational thing but again is having a crutch that I shouldn't try to take away from her in between when she has her care.

00:57:15: Yeah, and I think many horse owners are starting to learn about things.

00:57:18: hopefully if you're working with an osteopath i'm sure your familiar some of the concepts im about say but like so there can be original kind whether it was born into their body or whether injury happens.

00:57:31: they could be kinda primary issue.

00:57:35: then around issues becomes coping mechanisms, but I also want to say like it's really important remember bodies adapt.

00:57:45: You know i tell this story-I've told that on a few other podcasts about...it's in this book.

00:57:50: where is the book?

00:57:51: The Wild Horses of the Chill Cotton!

00:57:52: It's about wild horses here in Canada great book about conservation and some of the narratives around wild horses.

00:58:00: And it was horrified flipping through this book to see a picture of a wild horse in advanced states of Lamanitis, I didn't even know Lamanitis could get to that level because i would have thought they just had died!

00:58:13: The deformity in these wild horses hooves is very hard to look at...I had to close the book immediately take time away maybe weeks, months come back to it later and look at it again because it was just so hard for my domesticated sensibilities.

00:58:27: And all my judgments around what a body should be to look at that

00:58:30: picture.".

00:58:31: And yet there it was.

00:58:32: the horse is still living?

00:58:35: I could get into meaning.

00:58:36: making around The Wild Is So Cruel nature as cruel?

00:58:42: how can nature you know whatever stories would want to come up with... little pings of that happened.

00:58:51: But then in my observational mode and just looking at phenomena, well first I check my own feelings.

00:59:00: This is hard to look at this picture!

00:59:02: i'm getting really anxious and scared looking at this because...my sensitivity towards animals are not wanting to see them suffer-this is HARD TO LOOK AT!

00:59:13: Okay?

00:59:13: Is THAT HER or IS THAT

00:59:14: ME?!

00:59:15: Well right now it's me okay.

00:59:17: work on yourself for a second.

00:59:19: What can you do to just be okay?

00:59:21: Are you ok in this

00:59:22: moment?".

00:59:22: Yes, I'm OK.

00:59:23: Okay have a look at it again!

00:59:24: Have a look.

00:59:26: what does she looks

00:59:27: like?!

00:59:28: It's only a picture...it is hard to say but let us just take the pictures and see how they are.

00:59:33: She seems

00:59:34: OK!!

00:59:35: I am not seeing what i've been taught as pain face on this one snapshot picture.

00:59:40: I forget if there was heard members around or gave a narrative about part of a herd.

00:59:47: But I'm like, so she has... She doesn't seem to be- Like, she's doing okay!

00:59:54: At least in that moment The body adapts.

00:59:59: We in domestic environments and especially modern high technology environments.

01:00:04: don't let bodies adapt.

01:00:07: And perhaps we shouldn't You know there are maybe interventions That will better than the adaptation.

01:00:13: but just knowing bodies adapt, bodies have intelligence.

01:00:19: Bodies left to their own devices do wild things like in creative things that might not become fully expressed in one lifetime but then might contribute to a longer evolutionary adaptation.

01:00:37: That is like miraculous Wild Intelligence At play.

01:00:42: so my invitation isn't to say never intervene Only make the body supreme only listen to the individual.

01:00:50: let the individual express itself in its ways.

01:00:54: I don't go that extreme.

01:00:55: I try to meet it In the middle, but i would almost certainly Say that Almost every human almost is doing too much especially if they have a budget and The education They're gonna almost always do Too Much to intervene, and can we just leave a little more space?

01:01:13: To get curious.

01:01:14: And...to settle our own hyper kind of care modes!

01:01:21: To say like isn't it cool that bodies can adapt?

01:01:26: but now also let's meet in that place.

01:01:28: so I'm usually just to give a tiny little flavor what i do with something like that-I watch for long time before or after It's doing the thing when it does that thing.

01:01:40: I check like, Does it do that?

01:01:41: When is on its own or doesn't only do That one in a working session?

01:01:46: Is it only?

01:01:46: Do you know what?

01:01:47: it got a halter and lead rope on?

01:01:48: Doesn't Only do that not certain space.

01:01:50: so i i map.

01:01:52: I'm map The Thing that I am concerned about And I Check my own reactions to it.

01:02:00: How much Am I gonna be intervening in this body based on my own anxieties.

01:02:07: And I'm playing out a pattern of anxiety that is actually, a pattern that I play with many...I am not saying me specifically because it's a hypothetical person.

01:02:19: when we start to realize like oh can i check our own anxiities?

01:02:21: We might start to realise and do alot about them in life.

01:02:24: Oh!

01:02:24: I get anxious.

01:02:25: then try control the budget and education and control all these ways.

01:02:29: Then im going more education or money Im gonna control other way.

01:02:35: can we just check our reaction?

01:02:37: And then from there, I'm probably going to bring in some form of touch.

01:02:42: To get more relational information.

01:02:45: because back to this idea that the witnessing field—just a field of observation —the field of being an outside being bringing its attention to the being of concern whose body is not doing what it's supposed be doing already has power.

01:03:05: And I don't, i'm not saying people need to only operate at that level.

01:03:09: I'm just saying could you also include that as a layer before the other layers where we call the VAD or get the device or get treatment of whatever thing is?

01:03:19: So it might be just at the level of witnessing It might be at the levels slightly closer proximity of body-witnessing with some felt sense of eachother.

01:03:31: This already what your body workers are doing Whether they know it or not, I suspect most of them.

01:03:36: Know what before?

01:03:37: They even start doing the thing.

01:03:39: that is their specifics of their modality.

01:03:43: Can I now bring maybe touch to the areas?

01:03:45: can i use my touch as another form Of observation?

01:03:50: Hmm That's not meaning making yet It's just going.

01:03:53: oh can't I touch you here Or do you have a big reaction?

01:03:56: Can I touch You hear or Do you Have A Big Reaction?

01:03:58: How Big Is The Reaction?

01:04:00: Is it a huge reaction, is this small reaction?

01:04:03: I'm out of here.

01:04:04: Never coming back and don't want you to touch me or like just turned my head away then still there.

01:04:09: now relax when come back already at that level stuff starts to shift And you can see how that... Can you picture kind of what I'm talking about?

01:04:22: How?

01:04:22: first it's our eyes watching, then its body a little closer.

01:04:26: Then maybe your hand touching or even suggesting touch and we're watching their reaction.

01:04:33: You could where might eventually build up to this thing called pressure where now a hand might ask for movement.

01:04:40: But what if that hand is asking, isn't making the body move?

01:04:46: It's more an exploratory hand which says What would happen If I asked this part to do something and then we leave space For various reactions around it.

01:04:59: A lot of my work takes place at this level because What already takes place in these layers of interaction that I'm talking about, things just start to shift in ways that are way better.

01:05:12: Way more interesting!

01:05:14: Way more collaborative than traditional horsemanship.

01:05:19: that is like when i say move you gotta move and the realm of diagnosis, therapeutics gentle relationships starts to very softly enter into the dimension of, and now we're moving.

01:05:39: And that were creating shapes around each other.

01:05:42: Now I'm asking can you go this way?

01:05:44: You come this way!

01:05:44: And now your'e askin', Can We Go That

01:05:46: Way?!

01:05:46: And we go THAT

01:05:47: WAY!!

01:05:48: And lo and behold one day it start's look like if people follow my Instagram they'll see me doing stuff with horses that are... bigger, bigger expressions of movement.

01:05:58: that can look quite fun and people go how do you do that?

01:06:01: But I want to say like How iDoThat comes all the way back To your initial thing.

01:06:06: That You were saying oh here's a body moving in space that is Moving In A Way that I'm not sure Is correct or does it signal something wrong?

01:06:15: And I'm Saying that's All part Of a Spectrum of how I relate to their bodies and I think just that invitation to start at observation eyes.

01:06:26: Maybe eventually it moves to proximity bodies closer, but we're still watching all the details.

01:06:31: and then maybe It moves into touch.

01:06:33: We were watching all of the details And then I may use baby goes back now.

01:06:37: We're just moving away and Then they relax a bit and then we come in.

01:06:42: this is bodies relating To each other and diagnostics training Therapeutics.

01:06:50: there are part of the same thing.

01:06:51: for me does that?

01:06:53: Can you kind of picture what I was

01:06:54: saying?

01:06:55: Yeah, yeah absolutely.

01:06:56: Absolutely it.

01:06:59: um...I'm just loving this conversation!

01:07:04: There's two other things that i love to chat about and one of them is the concept of touch and pressure to create a little bit more of awareness and like concrete awareness for our listeners.

01:07:26: So if somebody is listening in their thinking, okay so I want to be more consent based with my horses?

01:07:36: I wanna be you know... More ethical with my horse's..I don't just wanted jump into escalating pressure on the way that was originally taught or whatever it might.

01:07:48: And so let's say they're working with their horse and the horse says no.

01:07:52: Mm-hmm,

01:07:54: and So then they find themselves stuck where every single day They're going to the barn and there saying well my horses keep saying No when we're not doing anything?

01:08:03: Yeah What is that balance there between

01:08:07: Not overriding

01:08:08: our horses Yes, and also perhaps not abandoning the ask?

01:08:14: um so that week can still

01:08:17: Yes.

01:08:18: Make relational progress?

01:08:20: Yeah, and this is important because I teach a lot about reading yeses and no's And i use words like consent although that's very kind of imperfect concept Consent but um...I'm definitely interested in helping horse owners to listen to yeses & nos more But I also don't want them to conclude when they get a know That thats the end of conversation.

01:08:44: It might be.

01:08:46: I don't even think like, i do so much of this work now.

01:08:50: Just Like...I call it excavating the no right?

01:08:53: Or mapping The No.

01:08:56: There's very few horses that they know They want you to stop at No It is usually more.

01:09:02: So Even there Start Trying To Distinguish Between What Is A Yes and What Is a No.

01:09:08: Know That As A Handler You're Probably Going Get Wrong And You'Re Gonna Be A Bit Confused.

01:09:12: But If Your A Little bit Confused That Probably Means The Horse Is Having More Agency.

01:09:16: probably not for sure, but just hanging out in that world of is that a yes or no?

01:09:23: But when you get to know... For me.

01:09:26: That's the beginning of conversation and I actually love some really ugly nose even if they're like mechanical noses shows a lameness.

01:09:37: It's very actually common with the type of work I do where i listen more to the horse, let them have their nose... The more noses that they've either been hiding or got locked up in there body.

01:09:52: so it is not uncommon for me to start seeing lamenesses being covered-up.

01:09:56: but maybe the dysfunction was moving into some other part and showing up there?

01:10:04: Or it was in behavior.

01:10:06: but then the more we let them say they know, than they kind of reveal.

01:10:09: Oh actually I have this like dysfunction in my left-hand leg or something.

01:10:13: so The main thing there is to say like no's are not the end of a conversation To me They're at the beginning and their'e Actually Like.

01:10:21: i love that Beginning.

01:10:25: So what Are What?

01:10:26: What's the question here like how to concretely work with A?

01:10:29: No

01:10:30: Yeah!

01:10:33: perhaps giving a little bit more clarity to our listeners.

01:10:36: There's lot of, or at least it seems that way from I'll say like my algorithm and the things that i'm seeing where its kindof what you said.

01:10:48: when Its A Know You Walk Away.

01:10:50: So then...you start almost feel frustrated And there is common thing about thinking It was just easier than I did in other ways.

01:10:59: It was just easier when I went up and i just halted them, yeah you know like those sorts of things.

01:11:04: And so now it's kind of finding that

01:11:07: the middle

01:11:08: exactly.

01:11:09: So the Middle.

01:11:11: Yeah The middle is everything and I know You want concrete answers?

01:11:14: Then I'm gonna give you very Like if you Want Concrete answers book a session with me.

01:11:23: It's very unique to the specific horse and how they show their no.

01:11:28: But this can be the invitation, This word The Middle.

01:11:33: I would say that most horse people for the same reason That i think all right?

01:11:37: I shouldn't just Say Horse People I Think Humans For The Same Reason.

01:11:40: They Might Find it Hard To Just Sit With The Wild Horses And Be In The Phenomena Have A Deficiency In Gradation Of embodied language.

01:11:55: They're very, like if you've ever spoken in a language that isn't your own tongue.

01:12:00: You typically only have like A few key words and Your communication is very kind of clunky Like we are.

01:12:08: No je ne vais pas les shows.

01:12:11: I don't want the thing...you Don't have nuanced vocabulary to express The things you wanna express.

01:12:19: i would say That most humans Have a deficiency in embodied vocabulary.

01:12:28: So it's beginning.

01:12:30: the best way I can liken.

01:12:31: It is to like a sommelier Like someone who was very refined In their palette when it comes to drinking wine, but you're familiar with this concept Yeah, and even gets parodied in like comedy where They'd be like, I can smell dirty socks

01:12:47: and

01:12:48: rotten apricots.

01:12:49: And it's this big joke the idea that a person could have their senses so refined that they can pick up on all these kind of wafts of sensory information to the point that they might know the soil that was grown in?

01:13:03: It is great side note!

01:13:06: Great show on Apple TV called Drops Of God That i love as horseperson because It's showing the refinement of the senses.

01:13:15: And it, its about winemakers and it is a fictional show.

01:13:21: but I love that because this is The Air I Breathe Is A Refinement Of Sensory Information.

01:13:28: So This Is What Horse Owners Need To Have More Of Um.

01:13:33: so around the know like i would say Even just knowing how to modulate pressure, if you even work in the realm of pressure.

01:13:42: It's also helpful to know there are ways that help a horse move but don't require pressure.

01:13:47: There is targets and moving with them when they're already moving.

01:13:52: I mean this whole range is for getting a horse or helping it move Although i do love pressure but knowing that pressure doesn't have to be a brute force brought to body, to displace it.

01:14:11: That is just so like we are talking... Like.

01:14:14: I don't want see Neanderthals because as i understand at neanderthal's where lot more refined than we realize We're talking in three word vocabularies and we need talk in thousand-word vocabularies!

01:14:27: I already mentioned some layers.

01:14:29: Gaze Is Already A Pressure.

01:14:32: Observing Is Already a Pressure.

01:14:34: proximity is already a pressure, bringing a body closer to the body.

01:14:38: You can see how these are shades angles of body or already a pleasure awareness of what my energetic state it as I come close to about.

01:14:48: he's all ready at differentiation and pressure.

01:14:51: breathing is our pressure environments that contain, so I've brought them into the indoor arena.

01:15:00: That's already a pressure.

01:15:01: Got to halter and leave rope on?

01:15:02: That's all righty pressure.

01:15:03: or got a bridle in a saddle at a tightened up girth!

01:15:06: That's alrighty a pressure about other people In The Ring And they're kind of agitated bodies.

01:15:10: That'a lot of Pressure.

01:15:12: So notice that these are All layers and gradation Of pressure that already exists before we even applying what We typically think of as pressure which is going To bring this body part to another body part and tell it to move, or I'm going to bring a flag or stick waving in that direction.

01:15:30: So without me being able talk about all the specifics of how we even get into know... The main invitation is as a horse person can you expand your awareness?

01:15:43: And your gradations....of touch really!

01:15:49: Before talking about pressure its touch Do we even have intelligence of touch?

01:15:56: I watch other people...I don't watch other make out, but i see other bodies touch eachother either on TV or in public and sometimes think like God that was such a crude touch.

01:16:10: That's such a crewed touch!

01:16:11: But then oh wait..that what would perceive as a crew touched the body seems to like that touch.

01:16:16: You know, I've been watching Love on the Spectrum.

01:16:19: It's very interesting to see when they touch because notoriously Autism often comes with a versions-to-touch and so it can be Interesting to watch certain bodies touch other bodies.

01:16:36: And no there is not just one right or wrong way.

01:16:38: you Know from some of my own colleagues who i respect Very much.

01:16:42: There are alot out there around like never use a web Or don't even use pressure and I go Maybe but do we not have any like?

01:16:52: that would be like saying?

01:16:54: Don't ever touch another person.

01:16:55: Like is there a field of awareness That can discern gradations of touch, and then read does this other body seem to Be receptive to my touch or are they perceiving might my touch as threat?

01:17:10: Do i use thread has my primary vocabulary.

01:17:14: Or do I have a form of pressure that isn't actually pressure, it's touch?

01:17:19: And Do i Have A Type Of Touch That Is Perceived By The Body That I'm Touching As One?

01:17:25: Where The Body Clamps Up Embraces and Gets Really Stiff In It's Movement or Gets Defensive & Hard & Spidey or Shuts Down & Avoids ?

01:17:35: Or Does When I Touch Do When I Touch?

01:17:38: Does That Body receive the touch as a welcome, helping force that can help unlock some of this stickiness and some of the holdings than inevitably build up in any body.

01:17:59: So I could talk about technique but i think it's better to just invite people And that what exact form you're going to use and how much or how little, because I definitely am very interested in modulating pressure.

01:18:39: and also am I constantly kind of calculating how that other body seems to be receiving the touch?

01:18:47: And can i trust, there's a form of that calculation.

01:18:50: That doesn't just need to live from books or high education but it comes with understanding things like softness hardness fastness slowness sharpness.

01:19:01: avoiding opening coming closer does make sense.

01:19:06: we know this vocabulary But where our culture, or horseculture doesn't teach it enough and doesn't slow things down enough for us to be in that field of awareness and observing.

01:19:24: And have calculating both sides of the conversation into not being getting it right and bumping around I had to go through a long process, it's still in there.

01:19:38: A little bit of deconditioning when people would watch my lessons and knowing that they're wearing the gaze of mainstream equestrian sport and going but she's not getting it to do this thing.

01:19:50: yet like where is the leg yield?

01:19:52: Where has the half past?

01:19:53: whereas The Beautiful Movements And be going?

01:19:56: i care way more about the quality Of the interaction That takes place When one body touches another.

01:20:04: Do the bodies, are they like contented size to each other's touch versus look at all of the cool things I can make this horse do but that horses embrace and contraction.

01:20:19: And a little bit of fear and a lot of stress...and i just can't wait till this is over until we start valuing the quality-the sensory quality of the interaction between the two bodies.

01:20:35: What can these bodies do?

01:20:36: what cool things.

01:20:37: Can you impress me with.

01:20:38: then we're never gonna understand pressure and how to use it.

01:20:44: Does that make sense?

01:20:46: I don't know if you meant to do this or not, but beautifully brought that full circle to the very beginning

01:20:55: of conversation.

01:20:58: It doesn't always happen, but it's great when it does!

01:21:02: It has been like this as kind of an active observer in this beautiful conversation arc which just brought us all around a full circle and I'm so excited for our listeners because Yes, it absolutely made sense

01:21:22: and

01:21:24: It also was Concrete but a layered concreteness.

01:21:31: You know so rather than Step A step B step C if there is like the theory involved.

01:21:39: So into me that's what helps create the deeper understanding.

01:21:44: Rather then step a step b step c with no foundation.

01:21:47: yes yeah The empowerment here is for owners to play with the kind of qualitative details that I'm inviting them to play.

01:21:57: And then if the play gets them in stuck points, Then make note of the stockpoints.

01:22:02: hopefully by then just like In this same way you say You're a good observer and share those observations With your failure or with Your osteopath.

01:22:11: So collect as much information Get To The Stuck Points Make A Picture Of The Stuk Point And then bring that to them.

01:22:19: That's where you're best going to be served by someone like me not By coming to mean saying I have no idea what i'm doing.

01:22:25: tell Me how, to do it?

01:22:27: It's already am a good observer.

01:22:29: i've Already done all these things with my horses but here is when i'm getting stuck.

01:22:33: Can You help me make sense of this little stack point?

01:22:36: and i mean i can Help someone at any point in there.

01:22:39: But In the same way that i want horses With some agency I want students with a lot of agency that are already experimenting quite a bit.

01:22:48: So hopefully your listeners take that invitation to experiment in the qualitative, try to let go of that mainstream horse lens.

01:22:57: That is like this how it has to be and if doesn't look like then you're doing wrong.

01:23:03: And If You're Repeatedly Getting Into The Same Ruts Then Indeed Find Someone To Help You.

01:23:09: But hopefully they can help you in a place where there not gonna say, this is how it has to be and I'm going show you that.

01:23:15: And their more coming from the field of.

01:23:17: let's both us look at all these information you've collected.

01:23:20: Let bring your horse into conversation.

01:23:23: lets take all those informations see what we could do with them To me.

01:23:27: thats why i am not calling training much anymore.

01:23:30: This was my session.

01:23:32: now

01:23:35: We have four rapid-fire questions and then I'd love for you to promote yourself.

01:23:43: Okay, so first one is do you have a motto or favorite saying?

01:23:48: Uh...I'm always being caught saying ride the rhythm.

01:23:52: And riding doesn't just mean writing.

01:23:54: we're riding the rhythm in all aspects of life.

01:23:58: Find the rhythm feel the rhythm than write the rhythm.

01:24:02: Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

01:24:07: I'm going to give initials here because there's times where i've been critical of my past and but also celebratory of my passed.

01:24:14: So,I don't want you call anyone out at other time that i have been critical a certain thing.

01:24:20: so im just gonna say R-K & L-A they deserve alot credit for who am now even if evolved into different directions.

01:24:30: If you could give Equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

01:24:37: Pay more attention.

01:24:40: Slow down and observe.

01:24:43: Yeah

01:24:44: And the last one please complete this sentence For me.

01:24:48: horses are

01:24:54: Here to remind us What is a creature on earth.

01:25:01: They're ambassadors for Earth And we forget that about ourselves.

01:25:08: We were supposed to be some of the guardians of the land as well, and we've really forgotten more often space sometimes literally with there's a rocket so it'll just be going around the moon right now?

01:25:21: We're earth beings and we're forgetting how to be Earth beings and horses definitely know How To Help Us Be Earth Beings Again.

01:25:30: I love that.

01:25:31: All right, Shannon please promote yourself.

01:25:34: Where can people find you?

01:25:35: How can they work with you?

01:25:36: all of the things?

01:25:37: Yeah so online I do a lot of posting on Instagram.

01:25:42: um I'm humming horse.

01:25:44: if you just type in Humming Horse You're probably gonna find me.

01:25:46: i think it's humminghorse underscore sb.

01:25:48: Right now My website is cominghorse.com.

01:25:52: I have a sub-stack that you'll find connected to either of those outlets where i write about not just horse stuff, but get more into earth based stuff there.

01:26:03: um...I really hope to be coming out with the second version.

01:26:08: course used to be called cleaning up the contact zone and now it will just be called Contact Zone.

01:26:14: I hope its coming out this year but i do things in my own time, so don't rush myself!

01:26:21: So most of you one-on-ones that can book through my website for asynchronous learning

01:26:31: Awesome.

01:26:32: We're going to put everything in the show notes, so if you are listening and interested just scroll down.

01:27:02: You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA, and check out our free seven-day trial on wehorse.com where you access over one hundred seventy five courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines.

01:27:18: until next time be kind to yourself your horses and others.